wilson seating die users?

[bruce moulds]

new to this product and wonder some things.
for this seater to have max benefit,
it would seem that the chamber would have to fit the case exactly.
this would require that firstly the chamber would have to be reamed to exact case size, and secondly that cases, seating die, and fl sizes OR rifle chamber be headspaced exactly the same.
I can see trouble using a chamber reamer to make a seater if cases got tight, don't even want to know about it.
this leaves making fls cases fit neatly, but easy to extract, and the gunsmith headspce the gun to suit the seater, so the case is fully in when the bullet is seated.
the shoulder fully touching would offer excellent alignment.
am I on track here? does it matter much? have I overlooked anything.
I must say that seating depth is remarkably consistent.
formed brass not fired has up to 0.008 runout when loaded, so the die I have won't straidgten them as suspected.
Wilson claim their seaters are made to saami max chamber, which is quite a bit bigger than saami min, which most of our chambers are.
possibly the ideal compromise is to chamber a seater with the same reamer as the gun.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Peterla]

Hi Bruce

I use a 223 Wilson seater and also neck sizer.
I had to send 3 cases back to Wilson and they reamed my seater and neck sizer to suite my fire formed cases.
I have not checked what the run out is but very happy with the group size I get from it.

One thing I will say though is make sure Wilson listen to you and do not send your old cases back with the dies.
I got in trouble with customs as Wilson did not listen to me and sent my cases back with the dies. Managed to talk my way out but not a good thing to happen.

I have 1 set for my 6.5x47 and they seem to work well but might get someone like Adam to check the case and projectile for run out so we can comment to you on that.

Pete

[AlanF]

Bruce,

The main thing is not to have the "chambering" of the die so short that the case head protrudes. Unless your case has a substantial body taper then it will tolerate several thou headspace. Make sure to get the micrometer top - they are very precise.

To make extraction easier have a recess or bevel on the mouth, and a small hole in from the side at the neck level will break any air seal.

Alan

[Brad Y]

Get the seater blanks and have it reamed with your chamber reamer. Done that for both my 260 improved and the 284 shehane. Put the sinclair micrometer top on both of them. Great seating die and its alot easier to load develop at the range- all you take is primed cases, powder and scales and projectiles. I know one guy who took some "wrong" ammo to a prize shoot. His gun was all over the place so he took a wilson seater and pushed the bullets in deeper. Bugger me dead he ended up coming second by two x's from myself in 3rd.

[bruce moulds]

thanks guys.
I am not sure if this sytem is superior to redding's done properly.
this system is in fact quite handy for not needing a big press.
keep safe,
bruce.

[DaveMc]

Bruce,
As I summise you already know. The Wilson and Redding (and for that matter even the Forster) in line seating dies can all be made to load extremely accurate rounds but the sizing die must do its job too. A seating die will not straighten shells that already have runout. I spent a few years obsessed with runout. Coming from a 222 and then slow twist 6BR (short bearing surface projectiles) we always seemed to think it was an extremely important factor and had done some testing to convince ourselves of this at least.

Hence I make all my seating dies (sleeves for forster and redding and wilson) from the rifle reamer and generally use a custom FL die cut with a specified reamer to match. However it is possible to tune up some of the other commercial dies to give low runout in sizing as well.

I am now less convinced for F class and long range shooting - depending on chamber specs. (Once again as you already know) I have seen many times where new brass with 7-8 thou runout will shoot extremely well. I guess this is because the projectiles we use in this game have a very long bearing surface. Generally we also have reasonable freebore with fairly tight tolerance, thus the projectile will align with the rifling even with large runout. I also guess an over resized case (new ones) allow a bit of freeplay for the projectile to align itself as well.

FWIW I also find the redding seating die in combination with the Lee hand press very small, light and compact to seat projectiles at the range. You can also use a neck die with this system and carry a FL die with you in the hope someone in the area has a big press???!!!!

Dave

[bruce moulds]

dave,
with the redding seater, if the case is just too small for the sleeve would offer the best alignment, subject to the sleeve being a perfect fit in the die, and all machining being true.
max benefit here comes when matching a chamber, a fls die, and the sleeve.
whilst none of my data is fully scientifically supported, I suspect that fireformed brass and minimal runout in fclass ammo offers 0.030 moa improvement. some, but not much.
in other words undectable in the real world during competition, taking other factors into consideration which override this, like wind, aiming difficulty in mirage, and mental condition.
as you say, if the case is not ready to take a projectile straight, no seating die in the world is going to solve this.
with regards the Wilson seater, I think referring to bill clark's book could be useful.
chambering the seater with the rifle chambering reamer is a start.
step 2 is to polish the fls die to absolutely minimally size the case.
this will then give a very close fit of case to die, and case to rifle chamber.
that of course is subject to the seater being headspaced to suit the sized case.
headspacing the seater would be far more critical with a .300 h&h or a 7x57 than with Ackley versions of, due to differences in body taper.
keep safe,
bruce.

[IanP]

Bruce, I use both Redding and Wilson seater dies but find I now use almost exclusively the Wilson dies. I have quite a few different cartridges to reload for and have both sets of dies for each calibre and cartridge.

I have found the Wilson seater dies in my Sinclair arbor press offer a really big low tech advantage. That advantage is simply that they let you feel accurately the seating pressure required to seat the bullet to its desired depth. The first time you use a Wilson seater it opens up to you another dimension of direct seating pressure feedback, which is only available in low mech advantage presses.

The big Redding and RCBS, etc, high mech advantage presses are perfect for sizing cases and the arbor presses are perfect for seating bullets with the Wilson die. The Wilson seater has one big disadvantage and that is you cannot seat bullets into a compressed load. It does not have the leverage of the big presses so its back to a Redding die for any compressed loads.

I also use the Wilson neck sizing dies in place of my Redding Type S neck sizing dies for the same reason as using their seater die and that is you can feel the consistent pressure to size the neck. Any variance picked up in neck sizing pressure felt through the press lever indicates something out of spec and gets checked out.

Using the Wilson seating and neck sizing dies is like adding another quality control step to your reloading. Its low tech and if your "ham fisted" and completely without mechanical sympathy then you wont gain as much as those who understand what increasing/decreasing lever pressure might indicate.

Final words on the subject are simply that if you dont try the Wilson seater dies out you will never know what your missing out on!

Ian

PS As suggested by others, buy the micometer topped Wilson die or buy the Sinclair micrometer top. I would also recommend the stainless steel version of the Wilson dies if available in the cartridge you want. Its important to note that Wilson seater dies are shipped with standard seater drifts and you will need to order the Wilson VLD seater drift (stem) for target bullet use! BRT in Queensland have a good supply of Wilson dies and VLD stems.

[DaveMc]

That advantage is simply that they let you feel accurately the seating pressure required to seat the bullet to its desired depth. The first time you use a Wilson seater it opens up to you another dimension of direct seating pressure feedback, which is only available in low mech advantage presses..

As per the lee hand press - effectively the same - not arguing against wilson dies at all but there are alternatives that can do just as good a job.

[bruce moulds]

and that "feel" might be more important than runout.
bruce.

[DaveMc]

Comments within text - some in caps sorry - I wasn't yelling just went back over some things.

dave,
with the redding seater, if the case is just too small for the sleeve would offer the best alignment, subject to the sleeve being a perfect fit in the die,
(NOT NECESSARY - the outside fit in the die has little to do with alignment and the wilson does not rely on this. IT IS THE CASE BEING HELD IN ALIGNMENT WITH PROJECTILE THAT COUNTS)

and all machining being true. - (This is the tricky bit I have found. It is easier for me to do this with an old barrel in four jaw lathe with spider where I can align the bore using a range rod and get everything concentrically aligned. Cut chamber with chamber reamer then use throating reamer with tight tolerances. It works very well.)

max benefit here comes when matching a chamber, a fls die, and the sleeve. (YES)

whilst none of my data is fully scientifically supported, I suspect that fireformed brass and minimal runout in fclass ammo offers 0.030 moa improvement. some, but not much. (I THINK IT IS MORE WITH SHORT BEARING SURFACE, NO FREEBORE CHAMBERS AND LESS WITH LONG BEARING SURFACE, LONG FREEBORE CHAMBERS (E.G. 5mm+)

in other words undectable in the real world during competition, taking other factors into consideration which override this, like wind, aiming difficulty in mirage, and mental condition.
as you say, if the case is not ready to take a projectile straight, no seating die in the world is going to solve this.
with regards the Wilson seater, I think referring to bill clark's book could be useful.
chambering the seater with the rifle chambering reamer is a start.
step 2 is to polish the fls die to absolutely minimally size the case. (YES AND ALSO ONLY RESIZE NECK TO THE MINIMUM AMOUNT NEEDED HELPS TOO - E.G. a tight neck chamber with only one thou clearance you only need to touch the neck sizing a fraction if at all and hence cannot make it too far out of line - if you want 3-4 thou clearance then runout starts to be harder to control and extra care in die manufacture/ setup is required)
this will then give a very close fit of case to die, and case to rifle chamber.
that of course is subject to the seater being headspaced to suit the sized case.
headspacing the seater would be far more critical with a .300 h&h or a 7x57 than with Ackley versions of, due to differences in body taper (I am not as sure about his one being as critical - the tapered shell should still hold in relative alignment albeit further in or out. Good headspacing is important though for other reasons.)
keep safe,
bruce.

[bruce moulds]

oh for a god quality lathe and the knowledge to use it (and all the tooling).
although a shit lathe might be ok to spin dies just to polish them?
keep safe,
bruce.

[DaveMc]

Bruce - I reckon every rifle club should invest in a lathe for its members!

In fact the easiest and cheapest way to make a custom die is to buy the wilson micrometer top and VLD stem from sinclair international and just use a bit of an old worn out barrel as described above for the base. - works a treat.

If you don't want to invest in a custom resizing die reamer then I would also recommend the Forster FL dies and get the custom neck grind. You can then polish out to suit your chamber too very easily for basically a custom fit die that will size very straight cases.

[bruce moulds]

dave,
the only thing against the club owning a lathe is some of the potential users
and what is a lathe without a milling machine
you might still be advised to have your own tooling
bruce.

[bsouthernau]

Its important to note that Wilson seater dies are shipped with standard seater drifts and you will need to order the Wilson VLD seater drift (stem) for target bullet use! BRT in Queensland have a good supply of Wilson dies and VLD stems.

I wasn't aware of that Ian - another excuse to add to my battery until such time as I replace the seating stem.



I found the rest of that post interesting too. I've previously been satisfied with the performance of my Redding competition seater and only bought the arbor press and Wilson dies due to their superior portability.

Barry