First time rifle reloader - check me please

[higginsdj]

My Savage 12 f/tr 308's Ogive as measured with my Hornady Ogive gauge is 2.1855". Measuring it with a chambered round ('loose' projectile) I get an average of 2.1869" +/- 0.0015".

So I am going to start my load development with 45gn AR2208 behind 155g HBC's 10thou off the lands. So to get 10 thou off the lands I need to seat my projectiles to give an Ogive length of 2.177" (rounding that 2.1869" up to 2.187") - Correct? (I don't want to screw up my decimal places)

I have been using factory ammo (club supplied) to date and the Ogive length of those rounds measured 2.2225" as supplied. Now since I am measuring the Ogive length and not OAL then I should get the same value for any type of projectile in my chamber (Sierra, Nosler or HBC) - Correct?

I shot my Savage again last weekend after 6 months away from shooting to find that the group sizes are getting smaller (Mid upper 4 to lower 5 as opposed to upper 2 to lower 3). At present I am not worried about wind but just my vertical spacing. I put down my large vertical spread to barrel break in and my poor shooting skills. (This is just my 10th outing with a rifle). I think that now I have recoil induced 'pain' under control I can concentrate on proper shooting technique and load development.

Cheers

David

[AlanF]

My Savage 12 f/tr 308's Ogive as measured with my Hornady Ogive gauge is 2.1855". Measuring it with a chambered round ('loose' projectile) I get an average of 2.1869" +/- 0.0015".

Sounds like you have a good base to ogive measurement for touching the lands of about 2.186 to 2.187, with both methods in close agreement (you're not going to get it any more accurate than about 0.002" regardless of method).

So I am going to start my load development with 45gn AR2208 behind 155g HBC's 10thou off the lands. So to get 10 thou off the lands I need to seat my projectiles to give an Ogive length of 2.177" (rounding that 2.1869" up to 2.187") - Correct? (I don't want to screw up my decimal places)

Correct.

I have been using factory ammo (club supplied) to date and the Ogive length of those rounds measured 2.2225" as supplied. Now since I am measuring the Ogive length and not OAL then I should get the same value for any type of projectile in my chamber (Sierra, Nosler or HBC) - Correct?

No not correct in my experience. You'll need to check each type of projectile independently and you'll find you'll get different measurements when touching the lands. Its because of the difference in the angle of contact between ogive and lands. Secant ogives (such as HBC) will be quite different from tangent ogives(eg SMK). Also, I'm surprised at the figure of 2.222" you've given for the factory rounds. In my experience these are loaded deep and in most standard chambers will have a big jump, whereas your figure represents a 0.038" jam????

I shot my Savage again last weekend after 6 months away from shooting to find that the group sizes are getting smaller (Mid upper 4 to lower 5 as opposed to upper 2 to lower 3). At present I am not worried about wind but just my vertical spacing. I put down my large vertical spread to barrel break in and my poor shooting skills. (This is just my 10th outing with a rifle). I think that now I have recoil induced 'pain' under control I can concentrate on proper shooting technique and load development...

We have a couple of Savage 12F/TRs at the range, and have not yet found the right recipe for accuracy. We think the bore size of these factory barrels may be too big and have sent one back - will keep you posted.

Alan

[mike H]

David,
I hope I understand what you are saying,to me you have two measurements with a difference between them greater than the amount of clearance you desire for the initial setting. Only one can be correct.I would use the measurement of the Hornady gauge and deduct the jump desired off that.As there is a variation,slight.in the ogive length of most batches of projectiles,you will see a difference in the length of the loaded round,measuring from the base of the case to the ogive.
Pleased to hear you are back,make sure you have enough ammo for the Canberra Queen`s matches.
Mike.

[mike H]

David,
Too early in the morning for me,got mixed up with three and four decimal places,I would still use the Hornady gauge.As Alan has said the ogive length varies with different types of projectiles,as a matter of fact it will vary between lots of bullets from the same manufacturer.It pays to note the lot number of the projectiles in use and if it changes,measure the new lot.
Mike.

[higginsdj]

Thanks Alan - that makes sense now that I found a schematic describing the Ogive and chambering of a round. I had thought the Ogive was the point of contact on the lands.

I'll recheck my measurement of the factory round (and actually grab a few and see if there is a 'spread') and get back. I did 14 tests of the HBC using the chambering ('loose' projectile) method just to make sure I got it right.

Please do keep me informed about your Savage findings.

Mike, unfortunately the ACT Queens seems to always coincide with the ACT ISSF Pistol Championships so I will have to give it a miss this year. (I'm not really ready for it this year anyway.) In the future I may have to alternate my ACT Shooting championships...

[Brad Y]

David

I and alot of other 308 shooters are having alot of success with 10-15thou jam of the HBC with between 45.8 and 46.2gr of 2208 and CCI450's in the lapua palma cases. 5 thou jump also worked in one barrel (a maddco) but pretty much everyone is shooting a jam now. Work up slowly to this mark.

If you do run lapua palma cases make sure your dies have either a ground down decapping pin or small primer decapping pin installed. Or you can uniform the flash holes out the 62 thou with the correct tool and standard decapping pins seem to fit.

In my own experience, vertical especially at long range is now a thing of the past with these small primer cases in 308.

[RAVEN]

higginsdj

My preferred method to develop a load is seat bullets jammed 15 -20th
Do a ladder test at 500m find the barrel node then once you have that go to 300m and test 3 shot groups jammed and jumped.

Hint: fire all new brass jammed at a mild load first this hardens up the web and primer pocket are lest prone to stretch if you put a stiff loaded through when load testing.

RB

[higginsdj]

Also, I'm surprised at the figure of 2.222" you've given for the factory rounds. In my experience these are loaded deep and in most standard chambers will have a big jump, whereas your figure represents a 0.038" jam????

Remeasured the factory rounds and they are 2.221 to 2.2225" BUT what I failed to tell you was that when using the projectile from the factory round (I assume Nosler or Sierra based on its shape) the Hornady Ogive gauge measured 2.2165" rather than the 2.187" value produced by the HBC projectile.

Cheers

David

[higginsdj]

David

I and alot of other 308 shooters are having alot of success with 10-15thou jam of the HBC with between 45.8 and 46.2gr of 2208 and CCI450's in the lapua palma cases. 5 thou jump also worked in one barrel (a maddco) but pretty much everyone is shooting a jam now. Work up slowly to this mark.

If you do run lapua palma cases make sure your dies have either a ground down decapping pin or small primer decapping pin installed. Or you can uniform the flash holes out the 62 thou with the correct tool and standard decapping pins seem to fit.

In my own experience, vertical especially at long range is now a thing of the past with these small primer cases in 308.

My brass is just the Winchester brass left over after shooting factory rounds and I have a packet of CCI200 primers. My aim is not to do too much 'load development' at present but have a reasonable starting load to work on my shooting technique. I'm really not a good shooter at the moment.

Cheers

David

[Southcape]

I only use Winchester brass as well. I love the stuff!!
I use what works for me. Many top class shooters around the world also use Winchester. So don't think you are using second grade brass. You will have to weigh and batch to get consistency, but I would do this no matter what brass I use.

I understand what you are saying in terms of learning how to shoot before paying too much attention to really developing a load. However, if you follow that line of thought, you may end up trying to fix problems that are being caused by your load not being tuned correctly, rather than issues with your position, or wind reading etc ...

You may be a new shooter, but you really should give yourself the best head start you can.

I do what Raven does, except I start at 600 yards, then go to 300, then when I'm happy I take my load to 1000 yards and use the barrel tuner for final tweaking.

[higginsdj]

OK, I hear you BUT.....

How much difference will load development actually make - ie whats it's influence? ie at 400m I can keep within the 4 ring only* (vertically - so ignoring wind). I use a Nf BR56 Scope at x42 so I know exactly where the rifle is aimed up to the point I trigger the shot. Can load development really pull that group size in? I have been assuming not and anticipate that if I were talking keeping the shots in the 5 ring then that might be a good time to start such development.

Cheers

David

* Random pattern in the 4 ring as opposed to a good group and a couple of fliers.

[Southcape]

At 400 if your group is as high as the 4 ring, your rifle will also be throwing them as wide as the 4 ring.

This is where you will be thinking it is you not reading conditions, where in fact, you may have read them perfectly, but your rifle has thrown the shot wide.

You need to tune your load to bring it into the 6 ring. If the spread is out to the 4 ring at 400, you can multiply this spread for every range the further back you go.

I have seen your reloading trolley, can you orgainse to take your gear to the range and have a reload and development day?
I do this for our F Class guys in the club, saves traveling time, and a load is settled on by the end of the day.

[Southcape]

Was your savage purchased new? Or second hand?

[higginsdj]

Was your savage purchased new? Or second hand?

New

[higginsdj]

I have seen your reloading trolley, can you orgainse to take your gear to the range and have a reload and development day?
I do this for our F Class guys in the club, saves traveling time, and a load is settled on by the end of the day.

Unfortunately it won't fit in the back of the Corolla

A reloading day would have to wait until I was on holidays since the only ACT range I could do it on (SSAA) would only be available mid week.

Cheers

David