Myths and Mysticism in Load Development

[wsftr]

I think we need a poll

How many science just pick a load a grain off max and go shoot it guys as tuning is pointless have won anything vs I tune my load and have won something.

We live in a universe where the statements "X test DOES work" and "X test DOESN'T work" can both be factually accurate.

The issue lies in the nuance of the discussion around the variables. There have been some really good talks on various podcasts with Bryan Litz, Jayden Quinlan, Todd Hodnett and Erik Cortina on the subject of Tuners and the "Satterlee" style tests where in each have had to admit that they are just recording what they are observing and that, by no means, is the conclusive end of the discussion.

Bryan Litz was recently asked what he does for load development, because people seemed to be taking his information as "nothing works, don't bother", and he said words to the effect of;
Load to max pressure, drop a grain and a half, see if it shoots, change primer, if that doesn't work, go up or down in charge weight by 10% until it does.

This is tuning his load. Which is exactly what these other tests are doing. He just calls it something different and starts at a different point. He has reiterated that he never said these things don't work, he just carried out a test and recorded the findings.

Science evolves. As the testing equipment gets better, we'll be able to better understand the variables and we'll be able to reload better and have a better understanding of all types of ballistics. People like Bryan will find these variables. People like Dingo (scientiffic name Illa Flagellare) are going to contribute nothing, and hold back the sharing of this information through tribalist mocking of anyone who wants to expand on the discussion, because despite his attitude that people believe in "snake oil", what he deems to be currently correct, can and very likely WILL become "snake oil" in a few years time as we learn more.

Also, it's fun to tease Dingo because he's so dumb, he doesn't even understand what he's arguing lol.

yip - I follow the podcasts and debate in detail - even on some of the lesser known names that present the same. Of course they choose components that work together but they don't tune in the granular sense of 1/10ths powder or small seating depth changes or tuners which is where the actual debate is - i.e. I don't see debate in the larger sense of a type of powder or bullet selection.
FTR for instance has pretty well known component combinations so unless you can't get those it might not be smart to start somewhere else.

Poor dingo
yes my post was tongue in cheek
At the end of the day who cares whether tuners work or not or 1/10th makes a difference - no one is forcing anyone to use a tuner or pick one 1/10th over another. The angst is however amusing.

[DingoDeerHunter]

Zero angst here, it’s just interesting that there’s no examples of larger sample testing that verifies these ideas.
I agree that the discussion is not about large changes like projectile type, powder type etc having effects. It’s the snake oil of 3 shot group, 2 tenth powder charge, tuner dialling that is the issue. There are literally no examples of rigorous large scale testing that remotely confirms these nodes and harmonic blah blah.

It’s kind of amusing that people respond with no information, no examples of rigorous tests but merely personal insults. What does that tell one?

I am just commenting on the fact that more and more reputable people are doing these tests and experiments and they’re all telling the same story.

But that’s ok, carry on reading the tea leaves, as you say it’s a free country. I’m just putting this out there so new shooters are aware it’s an issue, and that they don’t need to wholesale swallow the Kool aid of shooting 3 shot groups to find nodes or buy expensive dead weights for their rifle but can dig into a little quality research and make up their own mind. Or better still do some testing themselves and tell us their results.

Myself I did some velocity node testing - and then repeated the same test 5 times in 5 different occasions and noted no repeated results.

A mob called reloading all day did a similar thing with tuner settings - doing 7 runs of the same test with no repeated results, ie no tuner setting that brought the magic.

Take it or leave it yourself, but the venomous personal attacks in response to this issue indicates people are very sensitive and protective of their potentially homeopathic placebos.

Keep the personal insults out of it thanks, it’s just low class.

[Drop shot]

Zero angst here, it’s just interesting that there’s no examples of larger sample testing that verifies these ideas.
I agree that the discussion is not about large changes like projectile type, powder type etc having effects. It’s the snake oil of 3 shot group, 2 tenth powder charge, tuner dialling that is the issue. There are literally no examples of rigorous large scale testing that remotely confirms these nodes and harmonic blah blah.

It’s kind of amusing that people respond with no information, no examples of rigorous tests but merely personal insults. What does that tell one?

I am just commenting on the fact that more and more reputable people are doing these tests and experiments and they’re all telling the same story.

But that’s ok, carry on reading the tea leaves, as you say it’s a free country. I’m just putting this out there so new shooters are aware it’s an issue, and that they don’t need to wholesale swallow the Kool aid of shooting 3 shot groups to find nodes or buy expensive dead weights for their rifle but can dig into a little quality research and make up their own mind. Or better still do some testing themselves and tell us their results.

Myself I did some velocity node testing - and then repeated the same test 5 times in 5 different occasions and noted no repeated results.

A mob called reloading all day did a similar thing with tuner settings - doing 7 runs of the same test with no repeated results, ie no tuner setting that brought the magic.

Take it or leave it yourself, but the venomous personal attacks in response to this issue indicates people are very sensitive and protective of their potentially homeopathic placebos.

Keep the personal insults out of it thanks, it’s just low class.

Too long, didn't read, i'm assuming you're going to say "ad hominems" or something. I'll be skipping to the bit where you are zero value add and laughing at you because you don't even know what you're talking about lol

[DingoDeerHunter]

Thanks for the teenage reply. You’re engaging in school age bullying behaviour. Digital stalking even. It doesn’t bother me, but it could put your license renewal at risk. There is a character component.

[Drop shot]

Thanks for the teenage reply. You’re engaging in school age bullying behaviour. Digital stalking even. It doesn’t bother me, but it could put your license renewal at risk. There is a character component.

LOL man, i've a gravel driveway less abrasive than you lol

You're dumb, arrogant, deliberately antagonistic, and a jerk. People don't like that sort of behaviour.

When you partake in behaviour that is not of the tribe, you are outcasted.

I'll see if this analogy lands, let me know if I need crayons;

If you're a Queensland supporter in the state of origin, and you go into a NSW meeting, and yell at all the Blues that they are bad at football, you're not going to be well received. You're outcasted because of your beliefs and attitude and conduct. If you go into a QLD team meeting, as a QLD supporter, and yell out that the Blues suck, you'll be welcomed and people will embrace your attitude and behaviour.

We don't like the fact you're dumb, arrogant, deliberately antagonistic and a jerk. So we are outcasting you. You need to go and hang out with the dumb jerks, where you fit in.

To be 100% clear though; You are in a situation entirely of your own creation due to your attitude and conduct. You can cry victim all you want now. You're not going to get any sympathy.

Take the hint mate.

Go away.

[DingoDeerHunter]

What a delusional piece / you use the “we” - thinking you speak for the several thousand users of this forum.

Get a grip. I am concerned for your mental health now.

Please avoid this thread from now on, it’s not doing you any good.

This isn’t your forum and it’s not a tribe, it’s not a homogeneous group. You need to get off the internet for a while as you are losing touch with reality it seems.

Cheers and best wishes for your recovery.

[DingoDeerHunter]

Tuner testing

https://youtu.be/dYyRkzUaur8?si=nkoZMNwjeOsWZq0e

[Drop shot]

What a delusional piece / you use the “we” - thinking you speak for the several thousand users of this forum.

Get a grip. I am concerned for your mental health now.

Please avoid this thread from now on, it’s not doing you any good.

This isn’t your forum and it’s not a tribe, it’s not a homogeneous group. You need to get off the internet for a while as you are losing touch with reality it seems.

Cheers and best wishes for your recovery.

Lol, i'm the only one who's doing you the curtesy of saying to your face, you are your problem. But i LOVE that you didn't try to refute any of the assessments of your character lol.

You just keep on telling yourself it's everyone else. Enjoy the echo though mate.

[PeteFox]

I think you two lovebirds should take your pissing competition to the day nursery.

Neither of you have anything worthwhile to say.

Better that you keep quiet and appear to be fools than to open your mouths and confirm the fact. Opps it's too late.

Would Admin please lock off this thread.
Pete

[Drop shot]

I think you two lovebirds should take your pissing competition to the day nursery.

Neither of you have anything worthwhile to say.

Better that you keep quiet and appear to be fools than to open your mouths and confirm the fact. Opps it's too late.

Would Admin please lock off this post.
Pete

Wait a minute....

Jinkies!!!

Daphne! Who positively reacts to Dingo's Posts?
Scooby! Who backs Dingo despite his attitude?
Velma! Is there any correlation of tone, language and word choice!?
Shaggy! Who rode in to put a bow on the entire fiasco when Dingo got lit up?
*innocent mansion worker* Don't forget that Petefox said he was going to add you to his blocked list, then showed evidence he did! But still somehow knew what you were saying, and came here to reply!

*GASPS*

Smurf account lol

[pgcpty]

Re TUNERS
For what's its worth, been competition shooting for over 40 years with a modicum of success. On buying a Browning Boss equipped 270 Win 25 years ago found the Boss Tuner enabled group size improvement of factory ammunition from greater than 1MOA to less than 1MOA convincing me of their worth.
Consequently fitted tuners to all my competition rifles and have never adjusted seating depth to reduce group size, adjusting the tuner position instead.

Hope this discussion between Litz and Cortina may shed some light on the matter

https://thescienceofaccuracy.com/podcas ... k-cortina/

[Drop shot]

Re TUNERS
For what's its worth, been competition shooting for over 40 years with a modicom of success. On buying a Browning Boss equipped 270 Win 25 years ago found the Boss Tuner enabled group size improvement of factory ammunition from greater than 1MOA to less than 1MOA convincing me of their worth.
Consequently fitted tuners to all my competition rifles and have never adjusted seating depth to reduce group size, adjusting the tuner position instead.

Hope this discussion between Litz and Cortina may shed some light on the matter

https://thescienceofaccuracy.com/podcas ... k-cortina/

That discussion between Litz and Cortina is very interesting. From memory that podcast they bring up positive compensation which is a whole new can of worms as well.

The tuners working as advertised is a super interesting discussion. Whether they work as advertised or not I think is reasonably inconclusive, but it's fairly accepted that adding mass to the end of the barrel dampens whip, which increases accuracy, or more accurately, flattens the whip.

If I can find the video I'll link. But the theory goes that barrels whip in a figure 8, and by adding weight, the 8 is flattened and reduced, making the accuracy points wider, and therefore the barrel seem more forgiving of variances in charge etc.

This relates directly to OBT.... whether THATS something you believe in....

Erik has proven that tuners work. He's able to adjust his tuner repeatedly and knows where the accuracy lies and when to adjust it. But the man has fired millions of rounds. Is it possible for someone to buy a tuner and get the same results as cortina without his experience? Probably not. And I think that is where the "tuners don't work" statement is valid. Someone who has been shooting for as long as you have, with your experience is likely to be able to see the finest of variations. Someone without that who's bought a tuner expecting a fast track to success, is probably not going to get the results they want.

There's another article discussing tuner brakes, and it SEEMS that putting the tuner after the baffles, does nothing because the force of the gases against the baffles creates its own harmonic disturbance that outweighs the effect of the tuner the way they are currently made.

The tuners groups are the same as things like the mv node or flat spot tests. The question isn't binary; do they work/don't they work. The discussion is around, why do they work, then why don't they? Or why does a flat spot emerge or an accuracy node develop, then go away with more shots.

It's too convenient to simply say "too small sample size". Something is changing, altering the results.

If I fire 5 10 shot ladders and keep hitting the same flat spot, then all of a sudden it disappears, why? Why was it there. And now why is it gone?

We might simply not have the ability to test and assign a value to all the variables which come into play and understand what and why something is changing.

EDIT:
Forgot to add jump to the "small sample size" discussion. Again, it can't be said that there's no point to tuning jump, because there obviously is. You can't grab a VLD bullet, and load to SAAMI spec cart length and get good results (in my experience at least). But you can get a SMK or a Hybrid bullet and smack a load together and be off and racing. So again, it's dependant.

With forgiving bullets, you can tune SD by adjusting jump, and you can tune accuracy with powder charge (OBT). But there are some bullets and some rifles that prefer one over the other. And the only way to figure that out is to try it. You can't open a book and read a line of text and know that X variable doesn't exist in Y rifle with Z ammo combination 100% of the time. It just doesn't happen.

EDIT 2:
ALSO.... we do 10 shot ladder tests to ascertain barrel health. We accept +- 10 fps variation and +-.1gr from the original results to account for different variables. When the MV Stability node disappears, invariably it's something with the rifle or the ammuntion. Not noise from a "small sample". We tested this over the life of a 6mm Creedmoor barrel. When the node first disappeared, it was throat erosion at 400 rounds. The next time it disappeared was fire cracking up the barrel at about 600 rounds which changed the OBT. So again, are nodes a thing? Yes. Can i fire enough rounds to make them go away? Yes. Can I clean the rifle or adjust the charge weight/jump to bring it back? Yes. Does it move? Yes. Can I do this on the fly? No. So are nodes a thing? Yes. Can I tune for a load and leave it for the life of the barrel? No. So what is your metric for success?

[pgcpty]

Following on from my comments on Tuners I’ve included below links to the Browning Boss Patents for those interested. There’s a goldmine of information within.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 698810.pdf
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 279200.pdf
I would add that having spent my 40-year career in product development and being fully aware of the costs involved I’m confident that Browning wouldn’t have patented and brought the BOSS to market if it didn’t work!
What I’m astonished and disappointed to realize is that many high-profile Shooting Guru’s don’t do their homework, like checking out Tuner adjustment sensitivity or read patents? In my day you’d most probably lose your job for publishing incorrect conclusions based upon inadequate prior research plus your peers would come after you.
Conclusion, just be careful in what you take for Gospel from Guru’s, do your own research.