.223 loads

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

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Tony Q
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#16 Postby Tony Q » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:46 am

Iggy

Try SARA stores .... http://www.riflesa.asn.au/store.htm

They will have the Redding mic seaters and the ogive gauge tool your looking for.

BTW, the ogive tool is Okay, but in my opinion isnt really necessary if you have a good seater like the redding micrometer ones. The ogive tool will tell you what the true overall length is of a seated round, that is, base to ogive, apart from that it doesn’t really do much else. But for $30 or so may as well have it collecting dust in your box like mine does … :lol: .

I’m being a little hard, I do use mine, rarely, but I do use it to check length out of curiosity.

Tony.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

#17 Postby pjifl » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:50 am

Time and effort invested in the ammo will pay dividends. And you do need some measuring equipment. But many of the bits and pieces can be very simple.

The first item in my opinion is a good set of calipers. I prefer dial calipers but the electronic ones are great if you get a good set that continues to work. Many of the cheaper ones are OK but they can have issues.

You can easily make an 'Ogive Gauge' to use in conjunction with them.

Simply take a piece of plastic rod - like some 20 mm diam PVC rod about 30 mm long.

Drill a little way into it - maybe 10 mm - with a drill maybe 8 thou over bulet diameter.

Now drill through with a drill about 8 thou smaller than the bullet diameter.

You may need to use a drill for a small distance a little larger than neck size as well to allow the neck to enter easily.

The ends need to be square - a lathe would be the best here but it would be possible to do by filing if you have the patience.

Now take a loaded round and push it gently into the hole until it stops on the inner ridge. Push and twist to upset the plastic so it matches your ogive. Hence the suggested use of plastic.

To use, place loaded round into the plastic and measure with calipers from base of cartridge to far end of plastic rod. Engrave this length on the plastic.

From there on you can compare other loaded round lengths with it.

You can also measure bullets alone for consistency from base to ogive point.

A similar device can be used to measure case length from base to shoulder. But in this case you really need a way to make the angle on your inner stop close to your case shoulder angle. Best with a chamber reamer, but a carefully reshaped drill - with care - could be used.

Once made, this, used in a similar was to the above, is about the only way to know exactly how far the shoulder moves forward and exactly how much you are bumping it back.

There are a lot of other things to measure with ammo but this is a good start.

The next thing is to check runout.

Micrometer seaters. Nice. But patience, and checking can substitute for a micrometer adjustment. I would be putting the money into some way to measure runout first.

Peter Smith.

Guest

#18 Postby Guest » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:29 am

Seating Depth is an interesting subject and contrary to what some believe the position of the projectile relative to the rifling IS important and will vary from rifle to rifle and again vary with the load. Over the years I have probably fired more rounds testing, trying to discover the magic formula for accuracy---there is none, it's a suck it and see situation.
However there are some basic rules to be observed and the most basic is, what rifle "A" likes, rifle " B" dislikes and what shooter "a " does shooter "b " should'nt do. So, check it out.
Some projectiles are " length tolerant"- in other words, within reasonable limits, they don't care how much or how little jump you give them. However having said that there is still a position of the projectile relative to the rifling that will give optimum performance--all you have to do is find it, and believe me you won't find it at 100 or 300 yards. If you really want to check a rifle's grouping capabilities, start at 600 yds.
Sorry Peter I can and do measure my barrels to +/- 0.001" but not with the methods described in other posts.
Sorry Tony your method of " jambing " is to say the least, crude, and not very accurate. Consider the taper on a projectile just before the point of mating with the diameter, and imagine shoving it into a barrel that has a taper of 1.25 degrees. Without much effort you can easily force the projectile into the taper at least 1/2 mm and more, depending upon projectile shape.
This is more pronounced in a barrel which has some wear.
Having tried the stony point gauge I could never get the damn thing to read consistantly so gave it away.
The most accurate way to measure the relativity between bolt face and that point on the projectile where it touches the rifling ( presumably ) is to measure from the muzzle back using a gauge designed to do same.
With a proper ogive gauge it is then very easy, and accurate, to establish just where the point of contact on the ogive is.
Having established this " comparative " reading you can the set your seating die to give whatever jump or jamb you require.
Changing projectiles does not alter this reading, providing all projectiles are the same diameter.
Sierra projectiles are notorious for being different in ogive measurements from batch to batch, so it is important to check seating depth accordingly.
I have not had that problem with BJD's.---very consistant, however, unlike the Sierra, I find BJD's not length tolerant and prefer a specific " jump " for optimum performance.
An ogive gauge is an essential piece of equipment if you are to make consistantly accurate ammunition, considering the variations there are in projectiles batch to batch. ( BJD's excluded )
Overall lengths ( OAL ) measurement means nothing due to the variation in position of the point of the projectile relative to the point of the ogive that first contacts the rifling.
The ONLY dimension that has any meaning is that from the point on the ogive that first contacts the rifling, to the base of the case.
Barry

Tony Q
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#19 Postby Tony Q » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:55 am

HI Barry

Interesting post mate :)

I agree with you that my indicated method is crude, indeed very crude, but it was a method to try with the absence of the right tools. In reality there is no substitute for the right gear if you wish to make consistent ammo.

I agree that my stony point OAL gauge, and combined with my good caliper, can also give inconsistent reading. The whole thing, gauge and caliper, must be totally square to one another to be able to achieve total consistency. A better approach for it would be to have a one piece jig, but the OAL is inexpensive and better than nothing.

For interest, my BJD’s prefer a slightly longer jump than the sierras, and while I have not checked them for group at 600m at 300m they group at 27 – 31mm (vertical displacement) for 5 shots. So, I’m more than happy with that and my own reloading techniques, and achieving the ‘right jump for my rife’ only took 4 different seating depths to test involving around 40 rounds of ammo in total.

Note, that because of my long throat I cannot get any 155gnr’s to touch the lands, so, and as another TRG user said to me, we have a 20 cm jump :lol:

As far as techniques go, uniformity and consistency is always the key, but you do not have to be a slave to you ammo or let it consume your time. For instance I use a redding mic ‘neck bushing’ sizing die and mic bullet seater. The mic die is not essential and the only reason I got it is I reload for 2 x 308’s with different seating depths.

I clean all my cases thoroughly, inside and out.

I check all my cases for length with a caliper and group them.

I do not full length size unless necessary, and, I only neck size the first 5mm of the neck as I find this reduces potential run out greatly.

I chamfer all my case necks inside and out every time.

And that’s about it, and my ammo is very consistent, its me using it that isn’t … :lol:

Also, Peter is quite correct, as your throat wears you need to re set you seating depth.


Tony
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

AlanF
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Location: Maffra, Vic

A cheap and handy tool

#20 Postby AlanF » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:49 pm

Davidson Checker ($US13.85)
I just have the nose piece and use it for both sorting projectiles, and for checking seating depth.

Alan

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

#21 Postby pjifl » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:55 pm

Not sure what a 'proper' ogive gauge is, however. If you think the simple plastic device with a small internal step is very substandard I beg to disagree. Precision can easily be measured by repeated measurements and it passes this test very well. Remember, the key feature is that one deliberately forces and twists a projectile into it. This results in spreading the area of contact to give perfect matching close to the tangential point of the Ogive - hence the consistency. It is then a good basis for comparative measurements.

It is possible to make precise Ogive reamers. But if Ogives vary, its better in my opinion to only look at the point near first contact. Which is exactly what the simple bit of plastic does. It is in effect what Allan describes but is simpler. You do not really need the second piece for the base, nor is it necessary to have them fixed to the calipers. Needs a little skill in manipulating it but its quite doable and the precision obtainable is easily proved by repeated readings.

Barry's point about being able to force the bullet 1 mm deeper is quite correct - which is why I consider it impossible to measure to 0.001 inch. Even with hardened steel surfaces, depth of fit will be seen to depend somewhat on force applied at this slack angle. So to have an absolute length measurement of bullet seating the first thing needed is to standardize the force or else the measurements made by different people just are not comparable.

But, as a starting point for experiments it may be very useful.

I do consider the jamb method can be quite good. But the neck tension needs to be discernable - but quite slack. A heavily seated bullet is no good - and in this sense I agree with Barry's comments.

If anyone wants to experiment with measuring methods and reliability I suggest working on a barrel out of the action. You can lightly ream out the case neck, then measure through a hole in the base of the case to bullet base - or simply drop a projectile into the barrel and measure from chamber end to bullet base. Then repeat with a worn out barrel !!!

By the way, you will get better precision with a secant Ogive because the contact is much further from tangential.

OAL may or may not mean much.

But a very consistent OAL is impossible unless you have excellent bullets with consistent Ogives.

I have an older batch of Lapua 6mm projectiles which load giving OAL consistent to 0.002. Yet others often vary by 0.020 inch.

All of the above aside - I think everyone agrees that the real aim is a consistent way to load to a setting that performs well. The actual measurement for that setting may not matter too much - as long as it can be reliably repeated.

Peter Smith.

Guest

#22 Postby Guest » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:53 am

Peter,
To clarify what I mean by a " proper " ogive gauge.
When a projectile is introduced into the leade it is assumed that the first point of contact is the rifling. Well this may or may not be the case as it depends upon a) the projectile shape, b) the projectile diameter, c) the bore diameter, d) the groove diameter., e) the reamer design.
This can be easily proven by smoking the projectile then carefully inserting into the leade.
Sometimes it comes out with each rifling land clearly shown, sometimes with a full ring with no rifling lands shown. If it is a full ring then clearly the projectile does not touch the rifling lands. So, where does it touch first?
Most likely the ring which is formed by the difference between projectile dia and groove dia. ie projectile =.3082" dia, groove = .307 " dia. The closer the groove comes to .308" the more likely the projectile contacts the rifling first.
A " proper " ogive gauge is one that is made from the cut off portion of the barrel with the same chamber reamer run into it to reproduce as near to exactly what you have in your barrel.
I agree with your comment that a consistant force is necessary when inserting a projectile into the leade and is definitely operator dependant, however I still maintain that it is not difficult to " feel " to +/- 0.001" except when there is considerable wear of the rifling.
If the projectile does not contact the rifling first, but rather the "ring " then considerable wear of the rifling is not apparent when measuring the barrel for seating depth, so in fact you don't really know how far away or how far into the rifling the projectile is. if in fact you were into rifling in the first instant. ( new barrel )
Barry

pjifl
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#23 Postby pjifl » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:33 pm

Barry,

I am not sure that we disagree much on this at all - but I do think +/- 0.001 is optimistic.

I thought you meant something different re Ogive gauge.

Some may be interested in what I keep on hand to quickly 'prove' my loaded ammo.

When the last barrel was rechambered - and it was ruthless and removed 5 inches from a 30m inch barrel, I made a bump die from the chamber end by cutting off the action thread, doing a press thread, and running the reamer freshly in to suite.

I keep it alongside the loading setup and often insert a loaded round and feel the fit by hand. It is also extremely sensitive as a runout gauge (although I do have another which measures it more exactly). By twisting a round in it, much runout causes rotational resistance. It can easily be used away from home. In my case, once runout exceeds about 0.002 inch, some resistance is felt on turning and for the seating depth I use leaves slight scuff marks from the freshly cut land ends.

If there is any doubt about ammo problems, its a quick and unobtrusive way to check them.

In effect it is your Ogive gauge put to a different use.

Peter Smith.

littlebang556
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:04 am

What To Do???

#24 Postby littlebang556 » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:51 pm

I still can't see my way past the little 5.56mm after having one that was just the ducks guts, just had to point the thing near the target and the projectile would smell out the V with ease.

I have since worn the poor old girl out as the group slowly opened to an unacceptable level and set up another.

The problem I am having is that to get accuracy out of them (5.56's) the load often needs to be quite steep and my new barrel is 2 inches shorter than my last.
To get the velocity up I need to be running compressed loads of 2208 and at 25.5gn with erratic groups and was thinking of using 2206H instead of trying more powder...any thoughts on possible solutions.

Using Omark with 28 inch Krieger SS 1:7.7T.
10thou jump, Win brass, Rem 7.5 primers. New FP spring and reduced FP Dia

Cheers Guys.

Rob Alman
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littlebang556
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223 Loads

#25 Postby littlebang556 » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:04 am

Just completed a ladder test on the weekend with my 28" 7.7T and found ideal load for said rifle will be 24.6 of 2206H. I found that I could not get enough accuracy using 2208 as I had to severely compress the loads to obtain MV.
As for the 30" 7.7T we shot it from a rest with open sights @ 300m for a 10 shot V-bull group using 25.4 of 2208.
Batching projectiles (0.1) and cases (0.5) with this small calibre seemed to help accuracy.

Cheers

Rob A
______________________________
Fullbore = 5.56mm = 100.20 = smile
A.K.A........THE DREMELATOR
PUT Busselton RIFLE RANGE ON YOUR SHOOTING CALENDAR...THE GOLDEN BULLET...3rd Weekend In May. http://www.busseltonrc.com

ozfarm
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: western australia

Re: 223 Loads

#26 Postby ozfarm » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:10 am

littlebang556 wrote:Just completed a ladder test on the weekend with my 28" 7.7T and found ideal load for said rifle will be 24.6 of 2206H. I found that I could not get enough accuracy using 2208 as I had to severely compress the loads to obtain MV.
As for the 30" 7.7T we shot it from a rest with open sights @ 300m for a 10 shot V-bull group using 25.4 of 2208.
Batching projectiles (0.1) and cases (0.5) with this small calibre seemed to help accuracy.

Cheers

Rob A


ive been hearing about your trials & tribulations

grapevines stretch a long way :lol:

Woody_rod
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Contact:

#27 Postby Woody_rod » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:53 am

Rob,

You should have little danger tags on those rounds if you are using that much 2206 in them. If you are on my detail in the Queens, I will remember to wear body armour he he he.

The case matching is for Lapuas?

And, how many rounds have you fired through the barrel? I noticed mine is really now starting to hit the sweet spot after about 1100 rounds - although it is a "proper" caliber, a 308 :)

littlebang556
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:04 am

223 Loads

#28 Postby littlebang556 » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:58 am

Hi Ozfarm (RP),

Trials and tribulations it has been but just as well we have a mutual mate that was willing to give me a hand otherwise I would still be left scratching my already balding scalp.

Rob A
______________________________
Fullbore = 5.56mm = 100.20 = smile
A.K.A........THE DREMELATOR
PUT Busselton RIFLE RANGE ON YOUR SHOOTING CALENDAR...THE GOLDEN BULLET...3rd Weekend In May. http://www.busseltonrc.com

littlebang556
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:04 am

223 Loads

#29 Postby littlebang556 » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:09 am

Hi Rod,

If I was indeed using 2206 I would be stealing your armour,just as well there is a H behind it.

Winchester cases have always treated me well and I have one batch I am about to load for the 11th time. For the extra capital cost of the Lapua shells I personally can see no advantage.

My old 223 (and the one I will be using at the Queens?) has fired 4300 and my new on just under 600. We will group test the new one with new load shortly and let all know how it went.

Otherwise busy this weekend with the Murray District Rifle Clubs Association Prize Meeting in Yarloop.....I even plan on being on the other side of the bar for some of it.....I am sure I will have the opportunity to prop the bar up as well.

Rob Alman
______________________________
Fullbore = 5.56mm = 100.20 = smile
A.K.A........THE DREMELATOR
PUT Busselton RIFLE RANGE ON YOUR SHOOTING CALENDAR...THE GOLDEN BULLET...3rd Weekend In May. http://www.busseltonrc.com

ozfarm
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: western australia

Re: 223 Loads

#30 Postby ozfarm » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:06 pm

littlebang556 wrote:Hi Rod,

If I was indeed using 2206 I would be stealing your armour,just as well there is a H behind it.

Winchester cases have always treated me well and I have one batch I am about to load for the 11th time. For the extra capital cost of the Lapua shells I personally can see no advantage.

My old 223 (and the one I will be using at the Queens?) has fired 4300 and my new on just under 600. We will group test the new one with new load shortly and let all know how it went.

Otherwise busy this weekend with the Murray District Rifle Clubs Association Prize Meeting in Yarloop.....I even plan on being on the other side of the bar for some of it.....I am sure I will have the opportunity to prop the bar up as well.

Rob Alman


hopefully i should be down there sat arvo & shoot sunday, son is coming home from work experience on friday nite, so i have decided to see him & find out what he has been doing.
besides havent shot a full PM since yarloop 2006 & queens 2006 , ceased shooting prior to aug 6th last yr & have been out since then, only done the odd club shoots in the meantime, was planning on shooting queens this yr, but not so sure
will help prop up bar :lol:


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