Chasing the lands is stupid...

[Rich4]

I see that a lot, people arguing over the same thing using different terminology, it doesn’t just affect us, also without a lot of use most people cannot obtain a consistent reading with a sensitive micrometer yet I believe the stoney point is actually more sensitive to technique, thus any measurements are really only a guide for personal use, but if chasing the lands improves the target, load density is correct.

[scott/r]

I read somewhere a few years ago ( I think it was Mr Whidden on accurate shooter, but don't quote me) that he soft seated his projectiles .010 long so that when he shut the bolt, the lands pushed the projectiles back in the case. His theory was that was the only way he could consistently touch the lands.
Don't know if it worked, but he wins lots of things with a rifle in his hands.
Scott.

[bruce moulds]

many of us have tried soft seating.
it is fraught with danger, as bullets can move when travelling, and as the throat fouls, coal changes.
the fact remains that more than 90% of points, or Xs lost are horizontal rather than vertical, even assuming tuned ammo in accurate rifles.
until fclass shooters break through the glass ceiling of shot chasing, in other words, take wind reading to a new level, this will continue.
the creedmoor matches of the 1870s did not allow sighters.
the old dead guys had to understand wind and atmospheric conditions to a far greater level than we aspire to today.
bruce.

[GSells]

A point to note here is that we don't really get an accurate measurement of bullet length either (case head to ogive). If you don't believe that, use a different comparator or someone elses gear and measure a loaded round.






Or have someone else do the same measurement with the same tool, it will almost certainly be different. These measurements are all about each individuals "feel", this is why such measurements are not precise. It does not matter weather my measurement is actually .015" or my measured .018" just so long as it groups the X. I think this is what Mr Cortina was meaning, this gentleman is no dummy!!
G Sells, load development, powder charge, seating depth and bullet selection for your barrel and chamber is actually tuning barrel harmonics......doncha think, if done right rubbers and weights may not be required, worth pondering I think .
Keith H.

No sorry for the misunderstanding. But yes that still all applies . It’s , and I’ve been saying it for years now . Just makes things more user friendly to tune . All of the top shots in open and ftr and fsa are using harmonic modifiers . Not just this poor shot . There has to be a reason ?

I’ll give you an example. My new .284 w Bart I was tuning a month a go shot consistent one hole groups at 100 m . And it didn’t care if it was doingn 2830or 2880 or 2920 FPS . It was quite unbelievable to see .
This was backed up at a local 600 yd match were it grouped 3/8 “ on one side and then 1/2 group in another part of the fly target. Just the owner let it down ! If I had the conditions I believe it would group em all in under 1/2” at that distance!
I keep saying it . Yes a naked barrel can shoot just as well as one with mods on it . But my opinion it’s a lot of hard work keeping there . And many times I’ve seen a naked shoot like stink then go off later in the match . Other times they just never came back and the owner gave up but later switched to a tuner and he was back in the winners circle again ( no names mentioned ) . I run 7/08 ai , 3 x 284 w and my 280 ai and they shoot !

But yes Keith , it doesn’t deny the basics .

[pjifl]

Bruce wrote
the fact remains that more than 90% of points, or Xs lost are horizontal rather than vertical, even assuming tuned ammo in

Yes - but the better the elevation control, the more latitude one has for wind reading.
Consider the X ring. Equivalent tolerance patterns emerge for placement into the 6 ring.

1/4 minute out in elevation means there is no tolerance allowed in wind reading - an impossible situation.

1/8 minute out in elevation means that the allowed tolerance in wind reading is 0.17 minute.

0 minute out in elevation means that the allowed tolerance in wind reading is 0.25 minutes

Thus elevation consistency has a huge effect on how many lost points or Xs result from wind reading errors in light winds.

I do, however, agree with Bruce that jamming projectiles is just a bad idea. If all goes well, it works well but bullets do move in the box when soft seated and unloading a jammed projectile is a potential disaster with front locking bolt lugs.
For a BR shooter who may load on the mound between details it may make more sense.

I shoot with jump.
Personally, I think that video is muddled and not very useful.

Determining the zero jump point is far harder than most imagine. You are using a soft metal, contacting at an acute angle, and assuming that the 'gauge' which is a bullet is invariable. How many people reuse the same marked bullet to repeat the measurement ?

To me, this research is of far more value and far more practical

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/04/ ... ment-data/

Something I would suggest - especially useful to a new shooter - is to have your Gunsmith produce a really simple gauge when a new barrel is fitted. Often there is an inch or two that has been cut off the muzzle. Have him run the chamber reamer in just far enough so the slant of the shoulder just starts to form. Not enough so the edge of the shoulder forms. Now the shooter can look and see and feel what is going on when seating bullets into this gauge.

OF COURSE there are a few pitfalls. This only works for an unworn barrel, and if the barrel is lapped to some taper in the bore it will be slightly misleading. But it is a very reassuring device when experimenting with seating depth. Plus Felt pen markings.

Peter Smith.

[GSells]

Sorry and my final comment. I have to be but responsible for my comment about harmonic mods .
My advice to Newbies is learn how to run and tune a naked barrel and master that before moving to harmonic mods . A simple harmonic mods that a newbie can try once they have a good load is try some orings about half barrel length and about 4-6 “ from the muzzle. Not always a winner but it can make a barrel that you think wants to shoot but isn’t quite not there !
Some it doesn’t do much . But $10 with of orings always a try.
Also moving the mid orings will change the poi and it’s possible to use them as a poor mans tuner . I haven’t delved into that to prove totally. But there was evidence that this was possible. However every barrel has its own quirks! Regards Graham.

[AlanF]

...I do, however, agree with Bruce that jamming projectiles is just a bad idea. If all goes well, it works well but bullets do move in the box when soft seated and unloading a jammed projectile is a potential disaster with front locking bolt lugs...

Peter,

Have you had much experience with jamming without soft seating i.e. enough neck tension that the projectile doesn't move, and seating to a length that only jams to a moderate resistance? This has been the go to method for many top shooters using VLDs, and I use it for Hybrids also. Its only when I try to get very light neck tension that loaded round extraction becomes risky.

What's kept me from seating jumped is concerns about headspace, particularly when fireforming, but also later doesn't it make precise shoulder bumping more critical?

[RDavies]

While I do things a little different to EC, I do agree with the basic premise of what he is trying to get across.

When you first start load development with your shiny new barrel with it 2 degree (or whatever) leade angle, you find that it shoots best with .020" jump for instance. Doesn't matter how you measure it as it might be .025 or .010" jump, but you know that when your seater is set at 0.350" on on the stem (or whatever) it shoots best.

500 rounds down the track (or much less if shooting something like a 6.5x284 or a 7SAUM), your leade angle is likely no longer 2 degree or whatever it was before, but is now likely a different angle, not just further down the barrel, so it is likely the jam or jump preference might have changed. It now might no longer prefer the .020" jump it used to like, but it might prefer more or less jump.

The basic premise of what he is getting at in a round about sort of way is pretty much what I do. (Though I do still keep track of where the lands are in case I cant get out to test beforehand).
Every few hundred rounds, go to the range with 5 rounds each of ammo loaded a little longer. (I have always moved in .005" jumps but EC has pointed out this might be too much).
So I will have some left over ammo loaded with seating depth set at .350", then 5 rounds with seating stem set at .345" and 5 rounds with seating stem set at .340". I might also have a few more set longer which can be bumped back in on the mound if I either want to retest a setting or load some further out again.
When you get perfect shooting conditions on a range with honest vertical and a known good target, you test them for groups, not bothering where they are in the 6 or X ring, or whatever target you are using. Even shooting them on a target taped to a beer carton out in the bush or at an SSAA range at 300 is preferable to testing in bad conditions (sighting or wind), or on a range with big humps and hollows or a dodgy target.
At the end of the day, you will find that with your seating stem set at .340" (or whatever), the groups are smallest. So that is where you load your next batch of ammo. Is it jumping .020", who knows, but it is where it NOW likes to shoot best.

[ben_g]

This works for me.

https://youtu.be/TWmIwPwLyyg

Can do it 10 times and I get exactly the same measurement 10 times. Have never found those stoney point gauges to be even remotely repeatable.

If I am going to re test where my bullet contacts the lands/rifling as in method above I do it after the barrel has had a paste
I find with Berger hybrids you can often get away with leaving the seating depth alone after initial load development for many hundreds of rounds (Litz advocates this with hybrids as well). Have a dasher that shoots 105hybrids at what was initially 0.030” jump using the above method, it’s over 1500rounds old and I still haven’t touched the seater die and it still shoots just as small as when it was new (it does need a paste every two ranges to keep it alive now......)

With VLD’s I find seating about 0.020 or 0.015 longer than the measurement achieved in the above method will usually work very well, when loads go off the boil it’s a matter of re testing and seating longer than the new measurement.

There’s many ways to skin this cat.


Oh but I do agree with Erik on one thing, neck sizing is stupid!!!

[pjifl]

Yes, I have tried jam with a firmer seat. It never shot any better than with a specific jump. Often quite large jump.

I have seen catastrophes on the Mound when someone had a stuck bullet with powder everywhere. Happened to me once - thankfully not in a competition. Never again.

As to differing case shoulder bumps causing different headspace - using a Collet Die solves this over a series of reloadings. 5 maybe - or even more. BTW, any runout with minimum necks and long bullets dramatically changes the feeling of a jam for each shot.

I still think he makes a mountain out of a molehill although his contention that absolute measurements is largely irrelevant is correct. It is the actual jump distance that matters if you have determined it is related to group size.

But his example figures are fanciful. Pretending you can measure to 1 thou while you then proceed to load (obviously) different bullets. Then shooting a very small number under pristine atmospheric conditions to determine performance is just wistful thinking. Perhaps some people have access to the perfect shooting site at the perfect time.

I still remember when I accidentally seated a few projectiles with enormous jump. Like 0.160 jump ! Rather than pull them and redo necks etc etc I just loaded more until I had 10. Guess what - they shot very well.

Peter Smith.

[wsftr]

Yes, I have tried jam with a firmer seat. It never shot any better than with a specific jump. Often quite large jump.

I have seen catastrophes on the Mound when someone had a stuck bullet with powder everywhere. Happened to me once - thankfully not in a competition. Never again.

As to differing case shoulder bumps causing different headspace - using a Collet Die solves this over a series of reloadings. 5 maybe - or even more. BTW, any runout with minimum necks and long bullets dramatically changes the feeling of a jam for each shot.

I still think he makes a mountain out of a molehill although his contention that absolute measurements is largely irrelevant is correct. It is the actual jump distance that matters if you have determined it is related to group size.

But his example figures are fanciful. Pretending you can measure to 1 thou while you then proceed to load (obviously) different bullets. Then shooting a very small number under pristine atmospheric conditions to determine performance is just wistful thinking. Perhaps some people have access to the perfect shooting site at the perfect time.

I still remember when I accidentally seated a few projectiles with enormous jump. Like 0.160 jump ! Rather than pull them and redo necks etc etc I just loaded more until I had 10. Guess what - they shot very well.

Peter Smith.

I don't understand - isn't this what we call load development and we shoot to look at it on paper. I dunno about all the pristine comments by others as well - someone like Tony Boyer would say - no point in checking ya load in a honey hole...

[jasmay]

I’m with Peter, I won’t jam ever again after having a projectile come out, running a solid neck tension.

I was fine for years until I wasn’t, carbon had built up over the course of a day and the last range another mid shoot I had to unchamber, felt the ominous resistance on extraction and sure enough I was in a world of hurt... it can happen they quick and doesn’t have to be related purely to jam/tension, in my case as mentioned it was carbon.

I can get rifles to shoot just as well without a jam, may take a little extra testing to find the spot as I do find jamming can get a quicker result, but I won’t risk it ever again.

[Gyro]

This works for me.

https://youtu.be/TWmIwPwLyyg

Can do it 10 times and I get exactly the same measurement 10 times. Have never found those stoney point gauges to be even remotely repeatable.

If I am going to re test where my bullet contacts the lands/rifling as in method above I do it after the barrel has had a paste
I find with Berger hybrids you can often get away with leaving the seating depth alone after initial load development for many hundreds of rounds (Litz advocates this with hybrids as well). Have a dasher that shoots 105hybrids at what was initially 0.030” jump using the above method, it’s over 1500rounds old and I still haven’t touched the seater die and it still shoots just as small as when it was new (it does need a paste every two ranges to keep it alive now......)

With VLD’s I find seating about 0.020 or 0.015 longer than the measurement achieved in the above method will usually work very well, when loads go off the boil it’s a matter of re testing and seating longer than the new measurement.

There’s many ways to skin this cat.


Oh but I do agree with Erik on one thing, neck sizing is stupid!!!

Watched the vid Ben but I can't buy his results any more than the other ways to determine the same thing. Mate you can't seat a boolit a 1/2 thou deeper.

Sooooooo much of this measurement problem goes away with a jammed boolit and maybe that's why it's been the default seating depth for so many over so many years ?

[ben_g]

This works for me.

https://youtu.be/TWmIwPwLyyg

Can do it 10 times and I get exactly the same measurement 10 times. Have never found those stoney point gauges to be even remotely repeatable.

If I am going to re test where my bullet contacts the lands/rifling as in method above I do it after the barrel has had a paste
I find with Berger hybrids you can often get away with leaving the seating depth alone after initial load development for many hundreds of rounds (Litz advocates this with hybrids as well). Have a dasher that shoots 105hybrids at what was initially 0.030” jump using the above method, it’s over 1500rounds old and I still haven’t touched the seater die and it still shoots just as small as when it was new (it does need a paste every two ranges to keep it alive now......)

With VLD’s I find seating about 0.020 or 0.015 longer than the measurement achieved in the above method will usually work very well, when loads go off the boil it’s a matter of re testing and seating longer than the new measurement.

There’s many ways to skin this cat.


Oh but I do agree with Erik on one thing, neck sizing is stupid!!!

Watched the vid Ben but I can't buy his results any more than the other ways to determine the same thing. Mate you can't seat a boolit a 1/2 thou deeper.

Sooooooo much of this measurement problem goes away with a jammed boolit and maybe that's why it's been the default seating depth for so many over so many years ?

I go in by 0.001” increments when in know I’m getting close. And yes with a good Wilson in-line die and the SAME projectile you definitely can move it in 0.001” deeper increments. Of course in the real world when your seating a batch of projectiles that could all have slightly variable nose profiles and a seater die that contacts a datum point on the projectile somewhere forward of the ogive you can never seat every bullet to exactly the same depth to within 0.001”

As I said in my comment above I can end up with the same measurement 10 out of 10 times to the nearest 0.001”, something I have not being able to achieve with any other method. Try it out and you will see it’s the only way to accurately and repeatably find the point where the projectile first contacts barrel steel.

As for jamming?? What do you call a jam? My VLD go to is 0.015” longer then my BTO derived from the above linked method. Is that a hard jam?? I don’t know but that point always works.
The issue with being jammed is that accuracy can really fall off the cliff the day the throat erodes to the point some bullets are contacting the barrel and some are just off (see comment regarding variable nose profiles above)

When people ask me what my jump is with hybrids I quote if as ‘off’ my datum point that is derived from the Wheeler seating depth method. But having seen how some people use the stoney point style tools they could be easily 0.1” longer in their BTO to what they feel is first contact with the barrel.
So giving someone a jump figure is really useless if the method used to find the ‘Lands’ isn’t the same.

At the end of the day I can see EC’s point regarding what are we really measuring. For me I find with hybrids I can keep my hybrid loads humming with a bump in powder charge and a tuner tweak if needed as the throat erodes away from the bullet abd thus lowers pressure. The seater die doesn’t change.

[RDavies]

.

I don't understand - isn't this what we call load development and we shoot to look at it on paper. I dunno about all the pristine comments by others as well - someone like Tony Boyer would say - no point in checking ya load in a honey hole...

There are different levels of pristine conditions and in some conditions you are chasing your tail testing in and it is not always what most people expect. But that is a subject for another day and in my view, much more important than worrying about minor differences in seating depth or powder charge.