Chasing the lands is stupid...

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willow
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Chasing the lands is stupid...

#1 Postby willow » Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:56 pm

Well not necessarily my opinion but an informative watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRXlCG9YZbQ

jasmay
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#2 Postby jasmay » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:01 pm

One method.... there are many!!

argh
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Location: Central Coast, NSW

Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#3 Postby argh » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:00 pm

My reading of this....... he find the lands, then measures back from there. He tests different jump measurements. He just doesnt record the value.
THEN
he keeps seating longer and testing as his barrel wears......
Is that not "CHASING THE LANDS" during the life of a barrel?
Just because he doesnt actually record the numbers, doesnt mean he isnt chasing the lands as the barrel erodes ?

BTW, i jam my projectiles (VLDs), and i neck size

Gyro
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#4 Postby Gyro » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:17 pm

Interesting. Of course it's easy to pick holes in his method. EC starts out saying this stuff is hard to measure ( understatement ) then applies some measurement principles ..........

At least he applies method. Understandable method, unlike some of the 'science' put out about getting ya gun to stay shooting well.

No pressure Eric !
Last edited by Gyro on Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Accuracy
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#5 Postby Accuracy » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:17 pm

Sounds like misinformation to me. He also advocates F/L sizing every time.
After fire forming in my chamber I only neck size with a Wilson neck die and Arbor press.

wsftr
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#6 Postby wsftr » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:44 pm

The principle of what he is talking about makes a lot of sense i.e. to measure to the thousandth something that is being burned eroded etc..kinda nuts
he sure ain't saying seating depth isn't important
he is saying let the target do the talking - not how much land wear you can supposedly measure and adjust to that.
I've always assumed lands don't wear evenly (definitely not to the .001") so I've never understood what I was measuring exactly when I have tried...unless the barrel was new..thats a different story.

Redhawk
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#7 Postby Redhawk » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:33 pm

I just loved his shirt and the group size that went with it....... personally I find him logical on most things..... he does come with an impressive FClass track record...... yes there are others with as impressive track records, but public sharing is almost non-existent. Then there are those with zero track record, that will always criticise.... I know who’s advice I will follow

8)

Tim L
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#8 Postby Tim L » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:34 pm

I think he confuses the issue by saying it doesn't matter where the lands are.
It's not that is doesn't matter where they are, it just doesnt matter that you can't accurately measure where they are.
What he does, and what we all do by one method or another is establish a starting point. He does it with a dummy round and jams it into the lands. He then backs off 20 thou. I do it with a hornady tool and try and sit the bullet on the lands. Both are a best effort, neither provide an accurate measurment but both provide a starting point. I'd hazard a guess that my method would give a consistant 15thou less than his.
A point to note here is that we don't really get an accurate measurement of bullet length either (case head to ogive). If you don't believe that, use a different comparator or someone elses gear and measure a loaded round.

This is why it's imperative you use the same tools all the time. All we are getting is an indication of length that is consistant so the distance from the bullet ogive to the lands is consistant.
Eric's point is that we don't really know what that distance is, and that it doesn't matter that we don't.

GSells
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#9 Postby GSells » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:07 pm

Good advice , but that’s shooting a naked barrel !

Tim L
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#10 Postby Tim L » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:13 pm

GSells wrote:Good advice , but that’s shooting a naked barrel !

Is that a naked barrel as opposed to one wearing rubber bands :D :)

GSells
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#11 Postby GSells » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:25 pm

Tim L wrote:
GSells wrote:Good advice , but that’s shooting a naked barrel !

Is that a naked barrel as opposed to one wearing rubber bands :D :)

Gotta practice safe shooting Timmy ! :lol: :lol:

GSells
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#12 Postby GSells » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:45 pm

This is at the end of the day , is all about Harmonics. Setting seat depth in such 3 thou increments is just plain hard work . But different when you take out the harmonics all together. You can load a 180 backwards and it still get x’s ( not actually but certainly feels like that !) again , I wouldn’t get out of bed without some form of harmonic control . But that’s me and I busy with a business and just plain lazy or smart lol! Depending on how you look at it haha!
Why make life so hard ?? I’ve said it before. I believe Australia leads the world in harmonic control due to the theories of such People as Willaidia and Cam Mac in the early days with mass weights .
Anyway just my thoughts on it .

KHGS
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#13 Postby KHGS » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:52 pm

[quote]
A point to note here is that we don't really get an accurate measurement of bullet length either (case head to ogive). If you don't believe that, use a different comparator or someone elses gear and measure a loaded round.






Or have someone else do the same measurement with the same tool, it will almost certainly be different. These measurements are all about each individuals "feel", this is why such measurements are not precise. It does not matter weather my measurement is actually .015" or my measured .018" just so long as it groups the X. I think this is what Mr Cortina was meaning, this gentleman is no dummy!!
G Sells, load development, powder charge, seating depth and bullet selection for your barrel and chamber is actually tuning barrel harmonics......doncha think, if done right rubbers and weights may not be required, worth pondering I think :) :) :) .
Keith H.

williada
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Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#14 Postby williada » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:17 am

Eric is no dummy. He minimises his pitch in a bold way so that less experienced people will be up and running in no time to be competitive. This is a worthy goal. He knows less experienced people follow the top guns and he uses the reflected glory technique of reputable shooters to make his point in some of his videos. Eric is a champion in his own right.

Eric gives a firm foundation for a starting point. He indicates where group stability lies and what to avoid, particularly those tight groups between big groups – they are not stable over distance or in my experience in a change of atmospheric conditions.

Eric is a staunch advocate of tuners and manufactures them. His take home message on tuners is that moving the tuner also changes point of impact. Firing a few small groups corresponding to tuner change shows where the vertical group centre moves to as well as group size. He doesn’t go there to explain further ramifications he obviously understands in order to keep it simple and leaves the discussion where moving the tuner finds tight groups side by side. Same as load development, but its a further refinement to load development.

Its always been my philosophy not to change things if they aren’t broke and let the target do the talking. My basic approach is to examine barrel lift in combination with tight, stable groups.

Some of the science application promoted is seriously flawed when it comes to harmonics. I give just one example. There are many more. Some shooters use barrel time and barrel length as a basis for tune.

Barrel time. This method is based on the speed of sound travelling through steel in some publications. Yet, there is a significant difference in the speed of sound travelling through stainless steel compared to chrome moly. Gotta know what you are doing - hate to cut the barrel off in the wrong spot.

Keith is right, that load development etc. done properly is all you need. Most people can work for score within those parameters if they can read wind and light. But at advanced level we notice things are not always right with the trajectory over many distances, that groups spread a tad in elevation in say middle distance compared to long distance. The competition is so hot, supercentres count more today.

Here is where the tuner does two things: (a) it changes the point of impact of the group and (b) the size of the group. Eric knows this. What is often overlooked is the degree of barrel lift required to fine tune at long range and emphasis is placed at a basic level on group size. At the basic level, Eric rightly focuses on small groups side by side as a pattern to look for but some of those small groups might form higher or lower between the bigger groups. Then the question becomes which one is better? No set up is identical. This also assumes a competent smith has fitted the bend in the barrel in the vertical plane. Discovery learning is a good thing. You need to map the tuner settings while the barrel is young.

John T
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Location: Brisbane

Re: Chasing the lands is stupid...

#15 Postby John T » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:35 am

Hello.

How often do semantics play a role in accuracy discussions?

When most Australian F Class shooters talk of "lands", in the context of seating, I believe we mean we seat either " ...thou off the lands" or "...thou into the lands" or "TOUCHING THE LANDS" (God forbid!)."TOUCHING" (TTL) can be established with competent use of a "Stoney Point".

Eric is not talking about TTL, but some point between our TTL and his "JAMMED". More semantics. How many have bothered to establish Eric's JAMMED point? How did you do it?

As an avowed jumper, I never knew how to establish the seating depth from which I should subtract my (0.020) jump. Simply taking it from TTL did not seem meaningful, as TTL seems to vary according to the lengths of bus drivers' feet.

So I shot off an email to Walt Berger (then a bullet maker and owner of Berger Bullets). His reply was, do my Stoney Point with 6lbs. of pressure and take it from there. I tried it, using my trigger weight gauge, set at 6lbs.

So far as I could tell, that was Eric's JAMMED! Oh boy was it! JAMMED, that is. I have not tried it, but I doubt that length would change if I used 10lbs. (Not sure if my gauge goes that high.)

It seems to me that at barrel age, STD, Eric has established a point between TTL and JAMMED where there is a relationship between THAT bullet type and THAT barrel that is symbiotic (SP).

Eric can term it as he likes, but he is chasing his "SP" spot. He needs to find it again after throat erosion, if he wants satisfaction. And so do all of you who persist in seating "Into The Lands."

The reality is that Eric and all of you "INTO" seaters are chasing the same thing, your specific bullet/barrel SP.

And what is happening to your Load Density as the bullet is seated further and further forward , in quest of your SP?

Regards,
John T.


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