RUN TOO FAST?

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Gyro
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#16 Postby Gyro » Tue May 05, 2020 2:30 pm

Rich4 wrote:
Gyro wrote:Don't the top F Standard shooters get very close to the F Open shooters in the Oz comps, despite giving away a HUGE amount of wind drift ?

Are you suggesting the gap is a bit wider in NZ? :lol:


Fwiw Rich at the 2017 Nats at the Trentham range I shot in FTR and only one FO shooter ( Bob Ped from Oz ) beat me in the Queens agg. I was shooting 200g Berger Hybrids, bloody slowly ! I gave away a LOT of wind drift to the 7mm’s. And the winds that year were as hard as ever. That gun went really well that year. Now I’m playing in F Open and I would fully expect the top Oz guys to whip my arse, especially as my current 7mm gun only shoots well when it feels like it ! If only I could get the bastard shooting well all the time then …..

John T
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#17 Postby John T » Wed May 06, 2020 5:47 pm

Hello.

Elite shooters will have already determined if and when to use light loads.

The suggestion is intended for those who aspire to OPM glory and maybe a good placing at a Queen's, particularly new, "one gun" shooters who are still learning about the wind. There's not a lot to be learned shooting 180's at MV2960 over 3,5 and 600 yards On the other hand, at MV2720 you will see what the wind can really do and the learning curve is likely to be much steeper.

Regards,
John T.
6.5.20

wsftr
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#18 Postby wsftr » Wed May 06, 2020 7:37 pm

a question that has often sprung to mind - do you learn more by shooting lower BC before migrating up or just pick what you are going to shoot and get to know it really well?

ajvanwyk
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#19 Postby ajvanwyk » Wed May 06, 2020 7:44 pm

wsftr wrote:a question that has often sprung to mind - do you learn more by shooting lower BC before migrating up or just pick what you are going to shoot and get to know it really well?


The last statement.... some of these comments are like saying, you need to ride a bicycle in order to be a better formula 1 driver.... okay, what ever makes you sleep better at night...
Albert
Rosedale Rifle Club
Australian Points Series

John T
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Location: Brisbane

Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#20 Postby John T » Wed May 06, 2020 10:57 pm

A shooter, new to long range target shooting, started out in mid 2018, using a Club FS rig. She listened to the chat and asked questions. It seemed to her that F Open was the premier discipline, World Champs, 2013 and 2017! She did the research, listened more, asked more questions. She was very lucky to hear Devine singing the praises of the 183 SMK. More research.

Decisions were made. Action, Defiance Machine, Rebel Target Port. Barrel, Bartlein 30", 5R, 1:8.5. Chamber, 7 REM SAUM, with long throat to accommodate the 183 SMK. March 10 - 60 scope. (Where can she get that kind of money? The ATO should be informed.)

"But what about the wind?" "You just have to learn." (That's just great.)

(wsftr. It is axiomatic that when testing, only one element is changed at a time. In this example, the 183 SMK is fixed for the long term. The choice is made to lower the MV and increase the drift, thereby making the effect of wind, at the target, more obvious and more informative.)

Our shooter, hopefully under guidance, develops a light load, say, 52.0 of 2209, delivering MV 2735.

Off she goes with a very competitive shooting system. Drift at 1 mph at 600 is 0.302 and 0.59 at 1000. Not shabby.

She gains experience and posts scores and there are more than few glances (at her scores, that is.)

Watch out. She is one of a growing number a-coming for ya.

Regards,
John T.
6.5.20

williada
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#21 Postby williada » Wed May 06, 2020 11:58 pm

Albert, the answer is yes, you need to ride a bicycle unless you can get mentoring from a guy who has ridden that bicycle. Otherwise the ride to further success is very short. It has to be repeated on your own because others catch up. Then others may think you are just another man. We can't run too fast on our own without a little help from our friends, but the dream would be good while it lasts.

Gyro
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#22 Postby Gyro » Thu May 07, 2020 7:03 am

Something I think is not realised enough regards “condition reading” is that the shooter needs to be able to stay focussed. I don’t mean a little bit focussed. I mean really seriously focussed ! That means NO distractions !

One example : always full length size your cases between firing. If you don’t then soon enough you will very likely end up fighting with your bolt handle because the extraction becomes difficult ( sometimes the case gets stuck so tight the extractor rips a chunk off the edge of the rim, oh dear ). There’s your first distraction !!!!! And that’s just the start of all the things that can bite you and compromise your ability to operate in a totally controlled smooth troublefree way and STAY FOCUSSED.

If ya wanna look like a muppet on the mound then I got LOTS more tips for ya ( and don't ask me how I know them all ). Btw it’s ok to be a muppet when you’re a novice, but still doing dumb stuff after many years ? Lord I am intolerant.

And don’t take your bike to the range because it’s too hard to get all your gear on board.

PM : I just know someone will type in here that they never FLS the case and everything is just fantastic doing that. Great.

pjifl
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#23 Postby pjifl » Thu May 07, 2020 8:09 am

Usually, successful shoots just flow. Hard to describe.

BTW, you will learn more about wind reading by coaching a mate. There are far too many 'competition' shoots shot under rigid rules and not enough experiment and enjoying the pleasure of shooting.

Another incredibly effective technique to help a few new shooters is to have then line up with spotting scopes behind a very accurate rifle and call out their predicted sight settings BEFORE the target is marked. Harder with eTargets but highly recommended. It also will show them that even experienced shooters get it wrong - but less often.

Peter Smith.

Matt P
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#24 Postby Matt P » Thu May 07, 2020 11:47 am

Or as some seem to think, just shoot really fast that way you don't have to read conditions !! :shock: :shock: :roll: :wink:

KHGS
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#25 Postby KHGS » Thu May 07, 2020 1:28 pm

Matt P wrote:Or as some seem to think, just shoot really fast that way you don't have to read conditions !! :shock: :shock: :roll: :wink:


Awww, come on Matt, you and I and other shooters who can shoot fast know that that is not true. There is more to it than that, shooting quick (and well) usually means picking a condition (reading the wind) then knowing when that condition changes (reading the wind) then waiting for that condition to return (patience and wind reading), or shock horror pick another condition (yet more wind reading) and continue, all the while holding focus and watching the time elapsed. Oh bugger I am getting tired just writing this, oh I forgot, first you have to train and train to fire perfect shots really fast!!!!
Keith H. :lol: =D> :lol: =D> =D>

Matt P
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#26 Postby Matt P » Thu May 07, 2020 3:15 pm

KHGS wrote:
Matt P wrote:Or as some seem to think, just shoot really fast that way you don't have to read conditions !! :shock: :shock: :roll: :wink:


Awww, come on Matt, you and I and other shooters who can shoot fast know that that is not true. There is more to it than that, shooting quick (and well) usually means picking a condition (reading the wind) then knowing when that condition changes (reading the wind) then waiting for that condition to return (patience and wind reading), or shock horror pick another condition (yet more wind reading) and continue, all the while holding focus and watching the time elapsed. Oh bugger I am getting tired just writing this, oh I forgot, first you have to train and train to fire perfect shots really fast!!!!
Keith H. :lol: =D> :lol: =D> =D>

Sounds way to complicated :shock: 8)

ben_g
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#27 Postby ben_g » Thu May 07, 2020 6:21 pm

I just close my eyes and pray ...... :lol: :lol:

John T
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#28 Postby John T » Thu May 07, 2020 8:18 pm

ben.

Boys Town and Westbrook (homes for delinquents) were having a boxing carnival. The Boys Town lightweight, sitting in his corner waiting for the referee's invitation, said a short prayer and asked his Second, Father O'Reilly, for his blessing. As he bounced to the centre, the water boy asked, "Father, will that help?" 'No a blo0dy bit if he can't fight."

When you're slaving over a hot annealer, ask yourself, "Will this help?" "Not a bloody bit if I can't shoot."

wsftr
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#29 Postby wsftr » Fri May 08, 2020 12:07 pm

ajvanwyk wrote:
wsftr wrote:a question that has often sprung to mind - do you learn more by shooting lower BC before migrating up or just pick what you are going to shoot and get to know it really well?


The last statement.... some of these comments are like saying, you need to ride a bicycle in order to be a better formula 1 driver.... okay, what ever makes you sleep better at night...


really? I don't see it that way and don't get your analogy - TBH I've never seen someone just start straight off in F1 but whats that got to do with anything? F1 drivers are not better drivers than a supercar driver they just specialise in a type of car. TBH if I wanted to learn to drive I sure wouldn't start in an F1.
maybe you've got more than one gun you shoot - who cares.
The question is seated in techniques and approaches to build knowledge about wind and conditions and what they do to a bullet.
Maybe we will have to be inherently good to get far quickly in the most key ability to read the wind or perhaps keep shooting for 30 years or maybe there are techniques and approaches that speed up that cycle of learning?

Sleep well.

Gyro
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#30 Postby Gyro » Fri May 08, 2020 2:53 pm

wsftr your question is absolutely not a silly one. I started F shooting about 10 years ago and back then I really really wanted to get ahead and improve. A very experienced TR shooter in my club would say to me often … “ why don’t you shoot a cartridge bullet combo with lots of wind drift” ? I never took his advice because I was learning anyway. His theory was that it would speed up the learning curve. I don’t agree with that as the wind will blow any bullet off course, enough to make you aware that the bullet went to some other place than where you were aiming. Anyway this TR shooter in my club can read wind as well as anyone on the planet but what I really liked about his helping me out was that he could explain it really well. And quite frankly I would guess VERY few fellow shooters would deny you their best advice. Just ask if ya need help, at any range at any time, unless that shooter is getting really focussed themselves and doesn’t want to be disturbed.

You mention “inherently good”. I’m not sure anyone is inherently good at wind reading. It’s just a specific skill that has to be learned. The shooter just needs to make sense of what a bunch of flags are doing in the wind. There absolutely are strategies though that can turn an otherwise very confusing field of flags into something that actually does have some ‘pattern’ or some ‘order’. Call it what you will but the good wind readers will know what to look for. The very best strategy that I’m aware of is to just get locked onto a “condition”. Sometimes that can work out really well !

Having said all the above, at the 2019 Long Range World Champs held at the Trentham range here in NZ I was on the scoreboard helping out for the TR final of the Queens shoot. The final was shot at 900 yards and me and Brandon Green were marking for a shooter from the USA ( I forget his name ). Anyway part way into his 15 shot string the wind got really tricky. Not strong, but tricky. Our shooter fired three 2’s in a row. Plenty of other shooters in that final were also getting 2’s. It was just bizarre. They were perhaps lucky they weren’t shooting that final at 1000 yards because some shots would have maybe not hit the paper. When the conditions get really feral like that ya screwed !


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