RUN TOO FAST?

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Gyro
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#31 Postby Gyro » Fri May 08, 2020 3:26 pm

Just another little story from 2019 : there were hundreds of shooters at that shoot from all over the world and on my detail was a pommy guy who had never been to Trentham and he was getting hammered. The particular day I remember it was a really strong rear fishtailing wind and I was firing most of my shots on zero wind and they were going to the right place. So I said to my new pommy mate … “hey even though it’s a crazy hard wind there’s a lot of time when the wind value is actually zero”. So he took that on board and he starting getting much higher scores. And he was a much happier shooter ! Just something little I know but that’s often all it takes.

wsftr
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#32 Postby wsftr » Fri May 08, 2020 4:15 pm

Yeah its interesting Gyro

I read the write up of an american who shot in the final and wrote about it after he returned home.
It sounds like there were two conditions in that final a right hand and a left. The left didn't hang around too long but the right hand looked to be a reasonable cycle. Prior to the start he asked Bob Mead (renown in the US) which condition he would pick. Bob suggested the left. This shooter decided to pick the right as it hung around longer and looked readable and from what I can tell a lot of other shooters did too.
This shooter got half way through the relay after dropping a bunch of points on the right hand condition. He stopped, remembered Bobs words and sent a sighter down in the left condition, came up a v and away he went only dropping 4 more points. Turns out there was something very unstable about that lengthy, readable looking right hand condition.

Turned a few light bulbs on in my head that little story.

Gyro
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#33 Postby Gyro » Fri May 08, 2020 4:48 pm

Yes, where to start. I’ll start with Brandon : what a really nice humble guy. And a bloody good shooter ! And Bob Mead : I saw him there and thankfully he never came with his FO gun because he would have likely whipped my arse. But seems nobody told Bob that ya can’t trust that left wind. I remember going to Trentham one time about November December and the wind came from the left and who would be knowing wtf the wind value was. Not me.

KHGS
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#34 Postby KHGS » Fri May 08, 2020 5:40 pm

Gyro wrote:Just another little story from 2019 : there were hundreds of shooters at that shoot from all over the world and on my detail was a pommy guy who had never been to Trentham and he was getting hammered. The particular day I remember it was a really strong rear fishtailing wind and I was firing most of my shots on zero wind and they were going to the right place. So I said to my new pommy mate … “hey even though it’s a crazy hard wind there’s a lot of time when the wind value is actually zero”. So he took that on board and he starting getting much higher scores. And he was a much happier shooter ! Just something little I know but that’s often all it takes.


Ahhh, shooting on a condition?? Careful with that, there are those who think this is not wind reading :lol: :lol: !!! A little like shooting fast on a condition while it lasts, stopping and starting at the right times, all of which require wind reading and utilising the time allotted as per the rules of the match.
Keith H.

John T
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#35 Postby John T » Fri May 08, 2020 10:33 pm

Hello Albert, wsftr, Gyro and others who like Albert's analogy to F1 driving. My understanding is that the path for aspiring F1 drivers is to step up from karting to F4, to F3, to F2 and if good enough, get an offer to join the elite. The cars are different in each category, but the primary difference is SPEED. The cars get faster.

My shooter maintains every element of her shooting system, except to lower the charge and lower the SPEED. There one or two similarities to our driver, except my shooter gets to decide when to move to OPEN 1.

"Good night and good luck."

wsftr
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#36 Postby wsftr » Sat May 09, 2020 7:17 am

John T wrote:Hello Albert, wsftr, Gyro and others who like Albert's analogy to F1 driving. My understanding is that the path for aspiring F1 drivers is to step up from karting to F4, to F3, to F2 and if good enough, get an offer to join the elite. The cars are different in each category, but the primary difference is SPEED. The cars get faster.

My shooter maintains every element of her shooting system, except to lower the charge and lower the SPEED. There one or two similarities to our driver, except my shooter gets to decide when to move to OPEN 1.

"Good night and good luck."


Go John - and best of luck to you and your student, I think its great what you are trying. The F1 post by the OP seemed more about ruffled feathers rather than understanding the question. However - more power to the OP and their approach.
One element I would suggest to add to your students path (you may already be doing this) - a mental strategy. Boiled down there are 3 elements that are significant in a shooter creating their success - a good setup (include a well tuned rifle), good wind skills, a mental game plan (mentally tough, disciplined, focused and believing in themselves). The mental aspect applies to any sport. (actually make that 4 elements - a supportive misses :wink: )

Every dog has its day but there are some that are constantly winning or in the trophies - its more than just good wind reading and a good gun.

Peter mentioned that sometimes good shoots just flow - IMO its when a good strategy combined with that extra focus it all really comes together, you get up off the line and realise nothing else existed.

Take care and best of luck.

ajvanwyk
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#37 Postby ajvanwyk » Sat May 09, 2020 8:57 am

wsftr wrote:
The F1 post by the OP seemed more about ruffled feathers rather than understanding the question. However - more power to the OP and their approach.


Wsftr, I actually think that you might have taken my response out of context so allow me to explain further. Your question was and I am paraphrasing here: Whether someone should shoot a lower BC bullet to "learn" or just get good with what they are going to shoot... My response to you is "the last statement, meaning Shoot what you are going to shoot and get good with it.

John T wrote:Hello Albert, wsftr, Gyro and others who like Albert's analogy to F1 driving. "


Now on to the rest ....

Let us very clearly separate out the sections of this conversation, as it is bound to lead to further confusion or disagreement. There is a difference between Equipment and Fundamentals as there is with components and skills....

Using lower quality equipment i.e. an old Omark over a new Barnard or a shot our barrel over a new Kreiger or a rocking Fire Control over a new Neo is not going to teach you anything new. Here you need to buy the best that you can afford and use that to the best of your ability.... (Wsftr, this is linked to your question) But let us look at fundamentals, which is not equipment, and some were mentioned in the last post, the list is long, rifle handling, barrel management, mount setup, trigger control etc. etc.

These fundamentals must be learnt, no question about it, however, does this now mean that I need to shoot T/R first to learn about rifle handling and mound set up first? Surely those guys are the best at it.... and to that, I say no you don't have to... Absolutely learn from the T/R shooters, as I have but apply that to your own setup and equipment i.e. no need to ride the bike in this instance....

Then we get to components and skills, buying lower quality components should in my opinion only be motivated by financials.... I cannot see any reason that using "cheaper" components allow you to learn anything... in fact, I am very sure it detracts from your progress... As one such example, I built a Dasher because shooting a SAUM all the time gets pretty expensive. So cheaper components cheaper loads.... great.... what ended up happening though is that I started questioning the wind change across both calibres and small changes that I normally spotted and were able to adjust for, pushed me out. So NO, I will not use something else, but rather try to get good with what I have.

This does not negate the need to develop your skills, and these to me would include another long list, consistent and accurate reloading, mirage, wind reading, when to go fast,slow or wait..... these skills you learn by doing, many times over....

So why not ride a bike..... because equipment and components do play a part. It's not the only part but it's one none the less. When it comes to fundamentals and skills, sure crawl before you walk as David put it or going through the various F categories as John puts it but it does not mean that I have to start in (as example) in F-Standard to be a better wind reader than go straight into F-Open. Accelerate the process as much as you can by spending more time behind the rifle, in competitions and speaking to others.

Hope this clarifies my thoughts on this topic.

Albert
Albert
Rosedale Rifle Club
Victorian Rifle Association

Quick
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#38 Postby Quick » Sat May 09, 2020 9:36 am

I agree with Alberts comments. As much as his smile gives me nightmares, he is right regarding this.

Ive seen many a shooter start out with subpar gear, and just fight the setup, equipment, everything. Better buying the right atuff the first time and learning then fighting your setup aswell as the wind. Its demoralising and not good when trying to teach someone.

I will usually put new shooters on my gear if/when they show that they are serious. Quite often it shows them how good the actually are and how much their gear is holding them back. Had quite a few newbies shoot PBs off my stuff. They also hate me after as now they want to spend money to get their own kit upto standard.
Shaun aka 'Quick'
Yanchep, Western Australia

308 Win F/TR & F-S
7mm F-Open Shooter.

pjifl
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#39 Postby pjifl » Sat May 09, 2020 10:52 am

Until the actual shooting accuracy is sufficient - ie rifle and shooter - wind reading does not make any sense.

This is often seen with beginning TR shooters. Or ones whose barrels are on the way out and they refuse to believe it.

This is of course obvious, but often not recognized at the time. Then when the shooting accuracy improves past a threshold things suddenly make sense and real progress happens.

wsftr
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#40 Postby wsftr » Sat May 09, 2020 11:11 am

yip agreed with all of the gear and precision statements - but the question was seated in wind i.e. a lower BC has nothing do do with gear, finances or anything like that. John T has latched onto the question, same gear and setup but a load that is more wind sensitive relative to its full potential, as did someone else who posted that coaching is a great way to learn the wind. I think there were a couple of other informative posts on approaches for wind too..

a little story
I've been watching an FTR shooter for some years now - he has been shooting a national level setup - but 155s, IMO doing extremely well sometimes winning the odd match. He did that for a couple or 3 years - switched to heavies in FTR - now winning regional matches.
Maybe its just time on the mound or maybe there are techniques that speed up that wind learning cycle.
I've heard of and have embarked on coaching as an approach (I find the relationship between shooter and coach plays a big part tho) but threw the original question out there as another thought.

williada
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#41 Postby williada » Sat May 09, 2020 12:01 pm

I reckon recognizing the wind or mirage pattern and impact along the range is 70% of it and gear is 5%. That assumes the gear is good in the first place. Then it is a question of remembering where you are in the wind cycle, knowing your zero, and applying mental arithmetic when you have to and working a bias into the group not necessarily going for x's, but for score by safe siding. To do that the rifle has to be accurate. Let the x's flow if it warrants, but keep an eye on the weather at all times with a quick glance and get shots off quick while a condition lasts. Think the balance is taken up with mental toughness in playing percentages and luck of the draw.

Coaching is a good teacher, but it adds another dimension to personal relationships. No one wants to be coached by someone in competition who does not know his/her stuff. Nothing worse than a coach following your shots and not predicting. Confidence has to inspired. Development days where good shots are coached where there are no stakes is a good exercise.

At Moe, an exercise we ran was to place people in pairs or threes along the mound where they all shot on my instruction at the same time. People soon realize who is up to the mark and who needs further work with technique or gear or mental toughness when the call is to deliberately let them get blown out. Its a good team selection exercise for temperament evaluation and skill. Taking a little longer at times, then giving the instruction to fire really sorts people out with position and ability to respond to the fire instruction. Also catches those buggers who want to aim off and think their job is to read wind too in a coached scenario instead of holding centre.

Any plan has to start by identifying a problem, then looking at actions that could remedy the issue and monitoring improvements.

People have be trained first then practice makes perfect, so responses become automatic. Ever found yourself winding sights with out thinking and breaking a perfect shot where all the focus should be?

RDavies
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#42 Postby RDavies » Mon May 25, 2020 4:20 pm

I have a definite view on whether to practice with a combination which gives lots of wind drift, or one which bucks the wind very well, and that definite view is that it depends, could be either way.
Different shooters minds work in different ways, and all can be right.

It is like some people say you must wind down to 20x if there is any mirage, while others prefer to stay at 55x. Both are right if it suits their particular brain.

It is like how I hold centre and adjust the scope for every shot, but Alan does the opposite, hardly touches the scope, but holds off for every shot. Both work for either of us.

As for do you practice wind reading with a 6BR and shoot comps with a 7mm? One school will say practice with what you compete with, so you get used to the calibers wind drift, recoil etc and for many shooters this could likely be the best solution. My way likely wont work for most and likely isn't best for me, but I like to play, so I make a rule never to use a 7mm at anything under a Queens level shoot, unless it is fire forming or load development. If I am practicing or at an OPM at 300yds, I will use my 6PPC, or 22 BR. If I am shooting 5-600 I will use my 6BR, 6BRA, or Dasher. Further out I will likely use my 6.5x47, or maybe even drag out my slow running 284, or will use my 308 F/tr gun. In this way, with ballisticly limited calibres I really have to work hard to keep up with the bigger guns, so my wind reading, tactics, set up and concentration has to be spot on.

The downside of this is when I get to a Queens, the recoil of the SAUM comes as a bit of a surprise for the first few shots but I get used to after a few ranges. I also have to adjust how much wind I need compared to my little guns but this works for me. Maybe I would do better staying with a SAUM all the way, not sure. For many, my approach would not work at all and they would struggle with different holds, winds, recoil etc and are much better off doing what they are doing, and practicing with what they compete with.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it works for ME and maybe not you.

UL1700
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#43 Postby UL1700 » Mon May 25, 2020 5:38 pm

RDavies wrote:I have a definite view on whether to practice with a combination which gives lots of wind drift, or one which bucks the wind very well, and that definite view is that it depends, could be either way.
Different shooters minds work in different ways, and all can be right.

It is like some people say you must wind down to 20x if there is any mirage, while others prefer to stay at 55x. Both are right if it suits their particular brain.

It is like how I hold centre and adjust the scope for every shot, but Alan does the opposite, hardly touches the scope, but holds off for every shot. Both work for either of us.

As for do you practice wind reading with a 6BR and shoot comps with a 7mm? One school will say practice with what you compete with, so you get used to the calibers wind drift, recoil etc and for many shooters this could likely be the best solution. My way likely wont work for most and likely isn't best for me, but I like to play, so I make a rule never to use a 7mm at anything under a Queens level shoot, unless it is fire forming or load development. If I am practicing or at an OPM at 300yds, I will use my 6PPC, or 22 BR. If I am shooting 5-600 I will use my 6BR, 6BRA, or Dasher. Further out I will likely use my 6.5x47, or maybe even drag out my slow running 284, or will use my 308 F/tr gun. In this way, with ballisticly limited calibres I really have to work hard to keep up with the bigger guns, so my wind reading, tactics, set up and concentration has to be spot on.

The downside of this is when I get to a Queens, the recoil of the SAUM comes as a bit of a surprise for the first few shots but I get used to after a few ranges. I also have to adjust how much wind I need compared to my little guns but this works for me. Maybe I would do better staying with a SAUM all the way, not sure. For many, my approach would not work at all and they would struggle with different holds, winds, recoil etc and are much better off doing what they are doing, and practicing with what they compete with.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it works for ME and maybe not you.


Well my mind is blown :shock: :lol: One gun man here, the thought of adjusting to a totally different caliber on a regular basis is beyond anything I can conceive! it's also beyond anything the wife would let me spend #-o

James

RDavies
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#44 Postby RDavies » Mon May 25, 2020 5:44 pm

UL1700 wrote:
RDavies wrote:.


Well my mind is blown :shock: :lol: One gun man here, the thought of adjusting to a totally different caliber on a regular basis is beyond anything I can conceive! it's also beyond anything the wife would let me spend #-o

James

Yes I usually take a 6mm, a 6.5x47 (or slow 284) and a SAUM to a Queens, but might not work for everyone. One thing I can guarantee is that if my wife knew how much it all cost, she would never let me spend it either.

KHGS
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Re: RUN TOO FAST?

#45 Postby KHGS » Mon May 25, 2020 6:01 pm

RDavies wrote:
UL1700 wrote:
RDavies wrote:.


Well my mind is blown :shock: :lol: One gun man here, the thought of adjusting to a totally different caliber on a regular basis is beyond anything I can conceive! it's also beyond anything the wife would let me spend #-o

I am also a one caliber man too (I have 4 of them)........but I do use several loads for different purposes.
Keith H.


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