Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

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!Peter!
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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:35 am

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#16 Postby !Peter! » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:10 am

Thanks Frank for the picture.

FWIW, when I have to resort to JB bore paste I use the Super Intensive VFG felt pellets.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#17 Postby bruce moulds » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:22 am

frank's picture is interesting.
it appears to show also abrasion by fire, as well as wear.
the barrel also seems to have pitting.
when 5r rifling came out it seemed that we all needed it.
however the canted lands do not take control of brushes or patches like square rifling, often allowing then to skip the rifling rather than follow it.
when using abrasives one can only imagine the problems wiith wear, and the fact that this does not follow the twist.
my own taste in rifling has returned to square angles.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

argh
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:25 pm
Location: Central Coast, NSW

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#18 Postby argh » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:36 am

Thanks for the comments Frank. I do remember the death of the barrel with abrasive on a brush, and have been as careful not to replicate. I apply paste with a patch on jag only (no brush) only doing a couple of patches, and only every 500 to 600 rounds. It really does appear from my experience bring the group size back in a bit (shot 2x clean stages immediately after the scrubbing).
It does appear however to smooth the steel down and allow for more copper to adhere. Will keep an eye on the fouling and borrow a borescope to see the impacts now, and the again in another 500 rounds before and after the next scrub out.
My last barrel was still shooting possibles after 5,000 rounds using this same routine, so I dont think that it is wearing it out any quicker
Cheers
Adrian

Frank Green
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#19 Postby Frank Green » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Welcome Adrian!

If you have a clean system that works for you and your not wrecking the barrel. I’ve got nothing to say.

Same goes for the guy next to you. Just because he is cleaning it differently doesn’t mean he is doing it better. He could be doing it worse.

Even just with patches....if you see the patches coming out a really dark black color...it might not be carbon fouling. You are most likely polishing the metal/bore of the barrel.

Frank Green
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#20 Postby Frank Green » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:31 pm

bruce moulds wrote:frank's picture is interesting.
it appears to show also abrasion by fire, as well as wear.
the barrel also seems to have pitting.
when 5r rifling came out it seemed that we all needed it.
however the canted lands do not take control of brushes or patches like square rifling, often allowing then to skip the rifling rather than follow it.
when using abrasives one can only imagine the problems wiith wear, and the fact that this does not follow the twist.
my own taste in rifling has returned to square angles.
bruce.


Bruce, I’ll agree with you in part that the 5R rifling and that the brush won’t be driven as much vs. with conventional rifling.

That being said though even with a conventional style rifling and I don’t care if it’s a 2 groove, 3 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove (conventional), 6 groove etc....we’ve seen plenty of damage to the bores with a paste cleaner and a brush.

Mark at work if you should ever talk to him on the phone started by us about 3 years ago. He’s been doing benchrest shooting for about 20 years or so and maybe even longer. Just got him into F Class about 2 years ago as well. :D

Mark currently holds 3 BR records. Makes his own bullets etc....You ask Mark about cleaning with an abrasive/paste cleaner on a 4 groove barrel we made him before he worked for us. He was cleaning it the way TONY BOYER said to clean the barrel. The barrel had like 300 rounds on it and Mark will tell you with all honesty that he wrecked one of the nicest barrels he ever had.

Later, Frank

pjifl
Posts: 629
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#21 Postby pjifl » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:36 pm

The original 'Death of a Barrel' write ups may be somewhere on the Oz site but can also be found at

https://sites.google.com/site/pjshootin ... rel-damage

or the specific docs are at

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... NWY0NTU0OA

and

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... RhNzk5Mzlk


Viewed through a borescope, it was hard to believe what one was seeing, and it was only when the barrel was sectioned and viewed with a stereo microscope that the full horror was really evident.

Newcomers who have joined up later may find the details interesting and chilling. Experiments were never done with square cut rifling but I would expect similar but reduced damage.
My experience with two Bartlein 7 mm 5R barrels has been such that I would buy another - although I have also had excellent winning shoots from Madcos with normal Rifling. At the time, Madco only made 30 inch barrels (not sure if this is still true).

I do use JB occasionally very lightly on a well fitting jag stroking back and forth keeping most of the action towards the area closer to the chamber and never use it on a bristle or bronze brush. And always watch for free and full rotation of the rod. In this respect, a lot of commercial cleaning rods leave much to be desired. I think that regular and careless use of abrasive pastes is very dangerous to a good barrel.

Peter Smith

bruce moulds
Posts: 2426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#22 Postby bruce moulds » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:07 pm

pete and frank,
what i see in common in all photos looks like what i call flame cutting.
it occurs when hot gas goes through a narrow gap under high pressure.
several things can cause the gap, such as under size bullets, too big bore, (same thing) .
any gap induced by abrasive going across a land will only grow as flame blasts through it, even a scratch.
canteg lands allow this to occur more readily as they do not force the rod to rotate well.
if you are aware of this, you can assist the rod rotation and no problem will occurr.
it is just that that is a pain in the azz.
cast lead bullets will often bump up under pressure and seal the bore.
if they are too gard they will not necessarily bump up, and gas cutting of the bullet occurrs instantly, causing leading of the barrel.
at the higher pressures and temps of smokeless ammo, the same thing surely happens to bullet jackets.
this gas cutting will melt some jacket alloy which will end up on the barrel surface as copper fouling.
and at the same time as the jacket is flame cutting, some of the barrel will also disappear, making the system worse.
the photos show the cutting ACROSS the rifling, which is the way hot gas wants to go.
then the bullet is travelling over a file or rasp, removing more jacket material faster, causing more copper fouling and worse flame cutting.
a situation to be avoided at all costs.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

pjifl
Posts: 629
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#23 Postby pjifl » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:04 pm

Bruce,

There is no doubt that the damage seen in the photographs is due to Bronze Brush bristles and an Abrasive. There may be additional damage due to a Plasma attack along the then formed grooves in some cases.

Evidence (read the docs carefully) for this conclusion is from

1/ Barrels cleaned otherwise have never been observed to produce similar grooves across the lands by any of us in NQ.

2/ The process was replicated in an otherwise undamaged barrel simply by stroking with a Bronze Brush and the Abrasive cleaner. THERE WERE NO SHOTS FIRED DURING THIS REPLICATION AT ALL. This rules out Plasma damage to the barrel completely. This type of damage can be created in a near new barrel.

3/ The circular section of ALL of the grooves showed a circular profile matching closely the diameter of the bronze bristles. This is shown in the docs mentioned above. It cannot be coincidence.

If you need convincing, take a new barrel and start applying abrasive with a bronze brush while never firing a shot !

Peter Smith.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#24 Postby bruce moulds » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:57 pm

pjifl wrote:Bruce,

There is no doubt that the damage seen in the photographs is due to Bronze Brush bristles and an Abrasive. There may be additional damage due to a Plasma attack along the then formed grooves in some cases.

Evidence (read the docs carefully) for this conclusion is from

1/ Barrels cleaned otherwise have never been observed to produce similar grooves across the lands by any of us in NQ.

2/ The process was replicated in an otherwise undamaged barrel simply by stroking with a Bronze Brush and the Abrasive cleaner. THERE WERE NO SHOTS FIRED DURING THIS REPLICATION AT ALL. This rules out Plasma damage to the barrel completely. This type of damage can be created in a near new barrel.

3/ The circular section of ALL of the grooves showed a circular profile matching closely the diameter of the bronze bristles. This is shown in the docs mentioned above. It cannot be coincidence.

If you need convincing, take a new barrel and start applying abrasive with a bronze brush while never firing a shot !

Peter Smith.


pete,
one thing is for sure.
once the bronze brush marks are formed, there is a breeding ground for fire cutting which is only going to make it worse exponentially.
obviously
1) avoid bronze (and nylon?) brushes with abrasive.
2) keep that rod turning however you clean
3) use abrasive as little as possible.
that said, you have to do what you have to do to keep those barrels shooting, and this might include abrasives.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Wal86
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Kilmore, VIC

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#25 Postby Wal86 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:41 pm

Abrasives, are not the problem its the people using them incorrectly that is the issue...

If you have hard carbon you have copper... ( carbon is hydroscopic another issue).
Longer you let the carbon build accuracy will be compromised not to mention the harder the carbon is to remove as it becomes laminated...

Just a thought,

Alan

Frank
PM sent

williada
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#26 Postby williada » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:46 pm

Catch 22 with the cleaning and wear. Wal and Bruce are correct with regards to oversize bores and flame cutting and yes some steals are soft. Barrel makers are at the mercy of suppliers. Button barrel makers have to re-heat treat several times and this may eliminate the problem of soft steel. The rifling profile like the top of a canted land (aside from the other issues already mentioned) presents as a narrow ridge which is more readily worn down by abrasives than the greater surface area of the traditional lands particularly if abrasive is applied with a patch rather than a felt pellet which does not change shape as readily. There is nothing wrong with the use of a bronze brush if it is used after the crud has been wiped out with plenty of solvent on a patch so that is is not picking up that residue. How many people rinse out their brushes in Kero to prevent the re-introduction of crap into the bore? Its the crap , not the carrier that does the damage and the same crap or crud is carried on a nylon bristle brush too. Keith Hills has been an advocate for years with the soap and hot water. Do it! The use of moly or HBN does fill the pores on older barrels and prevents carbon build up. Carbon can not be dissolved but a cleaner gets under it to lift it off which the bronze brush assists. Otherwise you get build up of copper and carbon layers that turn to ceramic deposits with heat from continued shooting. Currently, I am running two SAUMs, one a Bartlein 5R with 1000+ rounds that has been cleaned first by carbon cleaner on a mop and then copper cleaner on a pellet and then bronze brush dipped in Kero for a few strokes. Wiped out with a clean patch and then oiled. It is superbly accurate. Several years ago, I got Waitesy's old SAUM to cut up for testing velocity spreads as part of a project as it was said to be past its use by date. I re-lapped the barrel to restore the surface as best I could without going oversize with heavier aluminium oxide grit. It shot so well when I changed the load, I decided not to cut it up. It has clocked over 2000+ rounds and smashes the target still at long at all ranges. It's a buttoned Madco now a tad shorter. I did subsequently cast another lead lap for the Madco and run JB on that with plenty of lubricant and then use a copper lap on the lands to finish. This knocks off the ceramic build up because the bore is micro pitted a little but its dimensions are sound. I do this every couple of hundred rounds, and note, it is not a dimension sizing method. I re-use the same lap and merely bump it up each time. The lead and copper laps prevent lapping in the wrong place like a patch does. I do not do this on the 5R's for my previous reason. It seems to me that people should avoid rubbing injudiciously with short strokes because reversal with abrasives can be severe. If I was to save a good barrel for important events, its the Bartlein 5R cut barrel for reasons beyond the scope of the cleaning arguments.

Frank Green
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#27 Postby Frank Green » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:19 pm

bruce moulds wrote:frank's picture is interesting.
it appears to show also abrasion by fire, as well as wear.
the barrel also seems to have pitting.
when 5r rifling came out it seemed that we all needed it.
however the canted lands do not take control of brushes or patches like square rifling, often allowing then to skip the rifling rather than follow it.
when using abrasives one can only imagine the problems wiith wear, and the fact that this does not follow the twist.
my own taste in rifling has returned to square angles.
bruce.


That’s the muzzle end of the barrel. Last 3” to the muzzles crown. No pitting per say. If any abrasion it’s not from firing it. It’s from the cleaning. The hard carbon particles will scratch and in conjunction with the paste and the brush.....all bad.

pjifl
Posts: 629
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#28 Postby pjifl » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:06 pm

Wal86 wrote Abrasives, are not the problem its the people using them incorrectly that is the issue...

Certainly, I would agree that abrasives have a place and the damage is in the hands of the operator.

BUT how does a newcomer know what is 'correct' or not ?

The original KG2 used to kill this barrel had on it instructions (reproduced in one of the docs) that it could be used with a bronze brush and mentioned 20 strokes. NO mention of how infrequently this should be used.
Many assume that if something is a good thing, more has to be better. The makers in my opinion were at least partly responsible for the interpreted use of the abrasive.

I believe that the manufacturers have removed mention of a bronze brush but still mention a bristle brush which in my opinion may still be quite dangerous to a good barrel - especially if used often.

One problem with the internet these days is that Google takes people to the most used web sites - often older ones - and much of the information given by 'instant experts' or enthusiasts is flawed.
Older material is often wrong but never corrected and remains what newcomers come up with. In this respect, the OzFclass forum is perhaps better than most when it comes to good information - most people really try to be objective and avoid hype and exciting stupidity and commercial extravaganza.

Much of the material and comments on popular web sites is aimed at the occasional hunter or gun enthusiast who have absolutely no idea of the requirements of shooting high X counts at 1000y.

Peter Smith.

Frank Green
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#29 Postby Frank Green » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:28 am

Mark currently holds 3 BR records. Makes his own bullets etc....You ask Mark about cleaning with an abrasive/paste cleaner on a 4 groove barrel we made him before he worked for us. He was cleaning it the way TONY BOYER said to clean the barrel. The barrel had like 300 rounds on it and Mark will tell you with all honesty that he wrecked one of the nicest barrels he ever had.

Later, Frank[/quote]

I asked Mark to add to the post here so he can give more detail on what happen to him and how he was cleaning etc......so Mark is typing now. :D
Hey Guy's, This was during the NBRSA Natls at Holton Mi and a qualifier for the US World Team in 2015. I managed to shoot a range measured
.1366 LV 100 agg which became the World Record, another win in the HV 200 and came in 2nd to Gene Bukys in the 4 gun.
I was using Iosso on a nylon brush along with my regular cleaning and because i had so few rounds on this barrel(broke it in and tuned it there) i saved
it for the World shoot. It never performed well after that and had to switch to another new one i had.
After i came to work here at Bartlein, we inspected it and found i had lapped out almost .001" out of about 8" of the breech end of the barrel
and had cut grooves over the tops of the lands, I had ruined one of the best barrels i ever had by using an abrasive on a brush.
I still will use an abrasive but only JB bore paste (the gray stuff only, not the red) and Rem Clean and ONLY on a patch and only on the carbon
ring in the throat. I will always do a full regular cleaning after it's use to make sure it's all out, and even go so far as to use a separate rod guide.
Last note, I now use these products sparingly, and only when absolutely necessary.
Your Humble Servant,
Mark Buettgen

Later, Frank

Frank Green
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Abrasive cleaners and copper fouling

#30 Postby Frank Green » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:03 am

pjifl wrote:Wal86 wrote Abrasives, are not the problem its the people using them incorrectly that is the issue...

Certainly, I would agree that abrasives have a place and the damage is in the hands of the operator.

BUT how does a newcomer know what is 'correct' or not ?

The original KG2 used to kill this barrel had on it instructions (reproduced in one of the docs) that it could be used with a bronze brush and mentioned 20 strokes. NO mention of how infrequently this should be used.
Many assume that if something is a good thing, more has to be better. The makers in my opinion were at least partly responsible for the interpreted use of the abrasive.

I believe that the manufacturers have removed mention of a bronze brush but still mention a bristle brush which in my opinion may still be quite dangerous to a good barrel - especially if used often.

One problem with the internet these days is that Google takes people to the most used web sites - often older ones - and much of the information given by 'instant experts' or enthusiasts is flawed.
Older material is often wrong but never corrected and remains what newcomers come up with. In this respect, the OzFclass forum is perhaps better than most when it comes to good information - most people really try to be objective and avoid hype and exciting stupidity and commercial extravaganza.

Much of the material and comments on popular web sites is aimed at the occasional hunter or gun enthusiast who have absolutely no idea of the requirements of shooting high X counts at 1000y.

Peter Smith.


Peter you bring up some very good and valid points! I’ve asked similar if not the same questions.

In the defense of Tony when it happened to him on the very original thread about this subject.....the shooter followed the cleaning directions on the bottle etc...

So as you pointed how is the new guy suppose to know?

I myself hate learning the hard way!

In my years of doing this shooting and barrel making thing....I can only recall only one time where a maker of patches contacted us or a maker of a new cleaning solvent contact us and ask us to look at it and give feed back.

Sometimes I feel some of this stuff is dreamed up in someone’s basement (which isn’t always a bad thing!) but to what extent is some sort of realistic/scientific testing is done to put claims behind the product or how to properly use the product. That’s the question I would like to see get answered. I don’t want to just hear this is the best etc...or I’m using it because this shooter is using it.

Yep hard to beat personal expierence from one friend to another but how one person uses the product doesn’t mean the next guy is going to use it the same way or the recommended way by the manufacturer.

Just like 1-2 years ago over here at some of the big matches someone was walking around and passing out free bottles of a new cleaner (I won’t name the brand) and of course guys said, “Gotta be good!” I’ll use it!” Then you start hearing from this shooter/customer that after the first cleaning they started having problems with the gun. Some got thru it and some didn’t.

Yes it was an abrasive type cleaner. One of the shooters who called me and told me what happen and what was going on with the cleaner being handed out at the match etc...has been on our national team and won our championships as well.

Makes you stop and think.

Later, Frank


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