Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

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GSells
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Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#1 Postby GSells » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:57 pm

As promised, this was done a while ago and I’ve just taken it form my FB page . This is stage 1 .

I know there are some Closet 280 ai lovers out there !! So I’m going to show how to make competition 280 ai cases , out of 30/06 Norma Brass ! Step 1 . Neck the 30/06 brass out .33 cal .

Step 2 measure a fired 280 ai case to measure headspace so it will fire ! Mine is 3.200 on the nose !

Step 3 is run the now .33 neck back through a lee 7/08 rem die till you achieve your false neck in this case
3.200 “

So that’s as far as I got tonight . I’ll show how to neck turn and the cream of wheat fire forming with pistol powder , over the next week or so !
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C4CB7869-CDD6-4FA7-9487-6F94FE2CD2F9.jpeg
84B44904-1970-4204-9312-5B3A605B2E28.jpeg
E0AE94FD-A4FA-4B19-9BD1-B912F9B26EAF.jpeg

Some of the pics are doubled up . You will work it lol!
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AlexE
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Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#2 Postby AlexE » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:50 pm

I love the cream of wheat method. I have a 200l plastic drum filled with pillow stuffing that I poured my shed slab on top of with a 35mm pvc riser poking through the slab to fit a rifle barrel. I can silently and safely fireform from the comfort of my reloading bench. I used to use the same drum before I built the shed in my living room. It was quiet enough to do while watching TV, but that process was quickly abandoned when my wife caught on to what I was doing...

GSells
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Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#3 Postby GSells » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:28 pm

Ok again just copy and paste from my FB page !!

Ok 280 Ai closet Lovers ! The series continues!! Last series which was up to step 3 , was all about a correct false shoulder . With the correct head space , so the new case would fire !
So , step 4 !! This is very important! In the early days , I think people can remember that I had a lot of miss fires ! A lot of head scratching and Devine inspiration led to a light bulb moment!
With Norma brass the primer pockets ( in my situation) weren’t square and allowing the primer to seat a few thou deeper at times than other primers .
So again .step 4 is squaring up the primer pockets with a Sinclair primer pocket tool.

Step 5 is annealing the neck and shoulder area ! I do mine how Cam Mac ( Julie McEwan) did his . With a torch in a dark room spun up in a drill.

Step 6 is only done if your brass is punched and not drilled . So using a Sinclair primer flaring uniforming tool , all of the flash holes are drilled to a set depth. Bryan Litz says that don’t touch the flash holes if they are drilled as in Lapua .
Step 7 , is neck chamfering with the foster tool , inside only .
Step 8 is neck turning . I have to do this in this barrel as Pesco have set up a .307 neck dia. So I neck turn to .304” leaving .003 “ clearance. This is about as tight in my experience as one can go for a tight neck , before SD’s go out the window.

Next is fire forming.

Ps pics maybe out of order but agin you’ll work it out !!
Regards Graham Sells .
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GSells
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Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#4 Postby GSells » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:38 pm

Here is a pic of annealling the necks . If you can afford an amp machine or a bechsource great . If your tight like me just a drill and a map torch will do in a dark room . Stop as soon as the neck is cherry red ( dullish). Some say that maybe too much . But if you go colder you may run the risk of some necks harder than others .
1EF969BF-BEC7-4A93-B7D0-9A15826F8D74.jpeg
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KHGS
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Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#5 Postby KHGS » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:48 pm

O.K. Graham I do not wish to throw cold water on what seems to you to be a good idea & I mean you no disrespect, but when you make technical posts you must be sure there will be NO ramifications from what you post.
From a technical point of view this is NOT a good idea!! It does not pose any immediate threat to safety, there is potential for safety issues down the track though. The end result of this ill-advised procedure could be costly in terms of barrel life & consistent accuracy over the life of the barrel.
One of the issues that grinds my gears over posts such as this is that some inexperienced shooter who thinks this is a really good idea & follows the procedure will then blame his gunsmith & or the barrel maker for any bad results he may suffer.
Easy to see why barrel makers & gunsmiths are reluctant to guarantee any particular degree of accuracy from the results of their labours, they have NO control of what the efforts of the enterprising owner will introduce into their reloading practices, this one is a classic example of one of these so called "good ideas"!! The reason I have commented on this post is not because Graham has given any misinformation about the procedure to do this, but because none of the ramifications of this practice have been posted as warnings. The experienced reloaders & those who understand chamber & cartridge specs will know what these ramifications are, the inexperienced will not!
Keith H.

bruce moulds
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#6 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:10 pm

cherry red?
get tempilaq and test this.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

AlexE
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 am

Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#7 Postby AlexE » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:16 pm

KHGS wrote:O.K. Graham I do not wish to throw cold water on what seems to you to be a good idea & I mean you no disrespect, but when you make technical posts you must be sure there will be NO ramifications from what you post.
From a technical point of view this is NOT a good idea!! It does not pose any immediate threat to safety, there is potential for safety issues down the track though. The end result of this ill-advised procedure could be costly in terms of barrel life & consistent accuracy over the life of the barrel.
One of the issues that grinds my gears over posts such as this is that some inexperienced shooter who thinks this is a really good idea & follows the procedure will then blame his gunsmith & or the barrel maker for any bad results he may suffer.
Easy to see why barrel makers & gunsmiths are reluctant to guarantee any particular degree of accuracy from the results of their labours, they have NO control of what the efforts of the enterprising owner will introduce into their reloading practices, this one is a classic example of one of these so called "good ideas"!! The reason I have commented on this post is not because Graham has given any misinformation about the procedure to do this, but because none of the ramifications of this practice have been posted as warnings. The experienced reloaders & those who understand chamber & cartridge specs will know what these ramifications are, the inexperienced will not!
Keith H.


Keith,

Are you referring to the cases ending up too short for a true 280 Ackley chamber? If so, would you mind expanding on this?

GSells
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#8 Postby GSells » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:41 pm

KHGS wrote:O.K. Graham I do not wish to throw cold water on what seems to you to be a good idea & I mean you no disrespect, but when you make technical posts you must be sure there will be NO ramifications from what you post.
From a technical point of view this is NOT a good idea!! It does not pose any immediate threat to safety, there is potential for safety issues down the track though. The end result of this ill-advised procedure could be costly in terms of barrel life & consistent accuracy over the life of the barrel.
One of the issues that grinds my gears over posts such as this is that some inexperienced shooter who thinks this is a really good idea & follows the procedure will then blame his gunsmith & or the barrel maker for any bad results he may suffer.
Easy to see why barrel makers & gunsmiths are reluctant to guarantee any particular degree of accuracy from the results of their labours, they have NO control of what the efforts of the enterprising owner will introduce into their reloading practices, this one is a classic example of one of these so called "good ideas"!! The reason I have commented on this post is not because Graham has given any misinformation about the procedure to do this, but because none of the ramifications of this practice have been posted as warnings. The experienced reloaders & those who understand chamber & cartridge specs will know what these ramifications are, the inexperienced will not!
Keith H.


Thanks Keith , likewise , I very much respect your opinion and newbies take notice of this gentleman .i assume it’s the annealing in a drill ? Yes if done incorrectly one could potentially blow themselves up . If one softens the metal too far down to the case head. I’ve seen that done and luckily they didn’t loose an eye !! Doing it in a drill does take practice and care . The heat must only be around the neck area and care to not over heat too . Cam Mac was a master at that sort of things . Something that has taken a year or twos practice.

If that what the issue is , thank you for bring it to attention. We are all in this sport together to help newbies !!

GSells
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#9 Postby GSells » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:06 pm

bruce moulds wrote:cherry red?
get tempilaq and test this.
bruce.

Hi Bruce . Being a plumber I’ve got a fair idea of when it’s right . Again another trial and error thing . Tempilaq may help . Cam Mac always told me “ Dark room till u just see it glow dull red . “

GSells
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#10 Postby GSells » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:24 pm

AlexE wrote:
KHGS wrote:O.K. Graham I do not wish to throw cold water on what seems to you to be a good idea & I mean you no disrespect, but when you make technical posts you must be sure there will be NO ramifications from what you post.
From a technical point of view this is NOT a good idea!! It does not pose any immediate threat to safety, there is potential for safety issues down the track though. The end result of this ill-advised procedure could be costly in terms of barrel life & consistent accuracy over the life of the barrel.
One of the issues that grinds my gears over posts such as this is that some inexperienced shooter who thinks this is a really good idea & follows the procedure will then blame his gunsmith & or the barrel maker for any bad results he may suffer.
Easy to see why barrel makers & gunsmiths are reluctant to guarantee any particular degree of accuracy from the results of their labours, they have NO control of what the efforts of the enterprising owner will introduce into their reloading practices, this one is a classic example of one of these so called "good ideas"!! The reason I have commented on this post is not because Graham has given any misinformation about the procedure to do this, but because none of the ramifications of this practice have been posted as warnings. The experienced reloaders & those who understand chamber & cartridge specs will know what these ramifications are, the inexperienced will not!
Keith H.


Keith,

Are you referring to the cases ending up too short for a true 280 Ackley chamber? If so, would you mind expanding on this?


Hey guys I appreciate the scrutiny, it’s always constructive and test the information.
Yes , if this is it Kieth ?? 30/06 brass is about 40 thou shorter from memory. This was so the 280 rem wouldn’t chamber into a 30/06 and viser versa .

Yes it’s recommended to use 280 rem or I am sure 270 brass would do too?

Why do I use 30/06 brass? For me reducing from 30 cal to .28 cal seems to build up a stronger neck to neck turn . The issue with the shorter neck for me hasn’t been a problem. But I own a borescope! Maybe different for others so yes that should also be mentioned.

For me , I’ve seen no difference in accuracy or speeds between 280 ai brass and 30/06 brass both in Norma . The chamber neck area looks quite fine for me but I am a plumber haha.
With the 708 ai .308 brass is slightly shorter than 7/08 rem . At a guess without going to the shed and measuring is about 20 thou short for the .308 . I’ve seen no detriment to the chamber so far . But that is for me . May not work for others .

I’ll be switching to Lapua 30/06 brass soon , purely a cost decision and Lapua brass is second to none .

But if you are using 30/06 brass you have been warned .

KHGS
Posts: 685
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW
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Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#11 Postby KHGS » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm

[
Keith,

Are you referring to the cases ending up too short for a true 280 Ackley chamber? If so, would you mind expanding on this?[/quote]

Hey guys I appreciate the scrutiny, it’s always constructive and test the information.
Yes , if this is it Kieth ?? 30/06 brass is about 40 thou shorter from memory. This was so the 280 rem wouldn’t chamber into a 30/06 and viser versa .

Yes it’s recommended to use 280 rem or I am sure 270 brass would do too?

Why do I use 30/06 brass? For me reducing from 30 cal to .28 cal seems to build up a stronger neck to neck turn . The issue with the shorter neck for me hasn’t been a problem. But I own a borescope! Maybe different for others so yes that should also be mentioned.

For me , I’ve seen no difference in accuracy or speeds between 280 ai brass and 30/06 brass both in Norma . The chamber neck area looks quite fine for me but I am a plumber haha.
With the 708 ai .308 brass is slightly shorter than 7/08 rem . At a guess without going to the shed and measuring is about 20 thou short for the .308 . I’ve seen no detriment to the chamber so far . But that is for me . May not work for others .

I’ll be switching to Lapua 30/06 brass soon , purely a cost decision and Lapua brass is second to none .

But if you are using 30/06 brass you have been warned .[/quote]

O.K. Graham, the issues are as follows:-
.280 Rem case length 2.540"
30/06 Sp case length 2.494" a difference of .046", then neck down to 7mm costing another .005" now we have .051'' under length. Now we fireform out to AI yielding another .005" now we have a total case length of .056" shorter than .280 Rem. It does not stop there, reamer makers grind their SAMMI spec reamers between .030" to .040" longer than case length, so we now add .030" to the .056" and we have a gap at the front of the chamber of .086".
So why is this a potential problem? Initially it may not be if you are using bullets with heavier and harder jackets. The thinner softer jacketed target bullets that will most likely be used may obturate in this gap setting up a potential "in barrel" yaw, not good for accuracy particularly at the longs, BC will be shed at a variable rate.
Then we have the potential for an .086" carbon ring to build up the gap between the case neck and the start of the bullet seat, this ring will not be removed with normal cleaning. This carbon ring will build up unevenly and in turn affect accuracy further along in the round count. This gap can also hasten throat erosion. Then if someone unwittingly uses correct 280 cases in a chamber that has had a few hundred 280AI short cases fired in it the aforementioned carbon ring will constrict the release of the bullet creating a potentially dangerous pressure spike and more accuracy loss, case damage & potential rifle damage. The only really successful way to correctly remove the carbon ring is to hand turn a reamer in the chamber just enough to remove the ring but not remove any metal. The reamer used to remove the carbon ring must be the reamer that was used to cut the chamber.
These are the reasons why making 280AI cases out of 30/06 brass in not as good an idea as it may seem on the surface. When these problems arise the barrel maker & gunsmith will shoulder the blame, the blame will never be laid where it should be, at the door of bad reloading practices brought about by not correctly researching what the ramifications of what we are doing may be. Wildcatting is not for the uninformed and inexperienced. Keep safe.
Keith H.

GSells
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Fireforming 30-06 brass into 280 ai as promised.

#12 Postby GSells » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:27 pm

KHGS wrote:[
Keith,

Are you referring to the cases ending up too short for a true 280 Ackley chamber? If so, would you mind expanding on this?


Hey guys I appreciate the scrutiny, it’s always constructive and test the information.
Yes , if this is it Kieth ?? 30/06 brass is about 40 thou shorter from memory. This was so the 280 rem wouldn’t chamber into a 30/06 and viser versa .

Yes it’s recommended to use 280 rem or I am sure 270 brass would do too?

Why do I use 30/06 brass? For me reducing from 30 cal to .28 cal seems to build up a stronger neck to neck turn . The issue with the shorter neck for me hasn’t been a problem. But I own a borescope! Maybe different for others so yes that should also be mentioned.

For me , I’ve seen no difference in accuracy or speeds between 280 ai brass and 30/06 brass both in Norma . The chamber neck area looks quite fine for me but I am a plumber haha.
With the 708 ai .308 brass is slightly shorter than 7/08 rem . At a guess without going to the shed and measuring is about 20 thou short for the .308 . I’ve seen no detriment to the chamber so far . But that is for me . May not work for others .

I’ll be switching to Lapua 30/06 brass soon , purely a cost decision and Lapua brass is second to none .

But if you are using 30/06 brass you have been warned .[/quote]

O.K. Graham, the issues are as follows:-
.280 Rem case length 2.540"
30/06 Sp case length 2.494" a difference of .046", then neck down to 7mm costing another .005" now we have .051'' under length. Now we fireform out to AI yielding another .005" now we have a total case length of .056" shorter than .280 Rem. It does not stop there, reamer makers grind their SAMMI spec reamers between .030" to .040" longer than case length, so we now add .030" to the .056" and we have a gap at the front of the chamber of .086".
So why is this a potential problem? Initially it may not be if you are using bullets with heavier and harder jackets. The thinner softer jacketed target bullets that will most likely be used may obturate in this gap setting up a potential "in barrel" yaw, not good for accuracy particularly at the longs, BC will be shed at a variable rate.
Then we have the potential for an .086" carbon ring to build up the gap between the case neck and the start of the bullet seat, this ring will not be removed with normal cleaning. This carbon ring will build up unevenly and in turn affect accuracy further along in the round count. This gap can also hasten throat erosion. Then if someone unwittingly uses correct 280 cases in a chamber that has had a few hundred 280AI short cases fired in it the aforementioned carbon ring will constrict the release of the bullet creating a potentially dangerous pressure spike and more accuracy loss, case damage & potential rifle damage. The only really successful way to correctly remove the carbon ring is to hand turn a reamer in the chamber just enough to remove the ring but not remove any metal. The reamer used to remove the carbon ring must be the reamer that was used to cut the chamber.
These are the reasons why making 280AI cases out of 30/06 brass in not as good an idea as it may seem on the surface. When these problems arise the barrel maker & gunsmith will shoulder the blame, the blame will never be laid where it should be, at the door of bad reloading practices brought about by not correctly researching what the ramifications of what we are doing may be. Wildcatting is not for the uninformed and inexperienced. Keep safe.
Keith H.[/quote]

Thanks Keith for your detailed input . :wink:


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