How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

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Buckshot
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Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#31 Postby Buckshot » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:54 pm

Thanks Peter, with all those different types of mirage to learn. Makes me appreciate the skills of the top shooters soo much more. Quiet a bit of mental calculations going on it appears to rise above "chase the spotter" level of shooting. While watching another competitor shoot at our 900 yd match the other week.... the shooter was on track for a possible and with a couple shots to go, Another more experienced shooter noticed a mirage switch with a sigh that the shooter didnt notice and the last 2 shots failed. I didnt see anything change in the condition but that other guy sure did and he "knew" that the next 2 shots were going to fail. I will be bugging that guy for tips as well.

AlexE
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Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 am

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#32 Postby AlexE » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:08 pm

Buckshot (Andy),

You should be shooting 300 yards this weekend (200 Sunday morning, 300 Sunday arvo). I'm not sure if I'll be there myself, so I'll offer you the following advice. You probably won't learn much about reading conditions from 200 yards due to the lack of flags and mirage being that it's shot in the morning.

There's a wooden sleeper on top of the mound, just underneath the targets. This is easily the best thing to look at to watch mirage at the Inverell range. You'll find there will be a predominant condition for the afternoon (hard left to right, generally). At this stage in the game, rather than trying to work out hold off's or adjustments for changes in condition, I would suggest trying to shoot in that predominant condition. If conditions change, wait until they return. Fire quickly when the conditions are consistent, leaving yourself enough time to wait out a change. You will still learn plenty about reading mirage by doing this as your shots should still be in the 6 ring when conditions return to what you take to be that predominant condition. It's not as easy as it sounds, and you'll have a good opportunity to test out your mirage reading when you inevitably can't wait out a change and have to shoot in a fast mirage heading the opposite direction!

You'll never become a world class shooter shooting solely on mirage, but you will certainly shoot consistent high 50s and possibles doing so (in summer at Inverell, at least). The giant hole in the range between the 300 yard mound and the butts will forever do unusual and unpredictable things to your shots. The fact that it's a basalt quarry and it's the middle of summer doesn't help.

The bulk of the old guard in the club have been shooting there since Jesus played fullback for Jerusalem and still haven't tamed it, so get used to it! I've seen some top Fullbore shooters consistently knock out 50s there, but consistent 60s are pretty elusive to the f-open shooter. An interesting titbit about the Inverell range - only three club members have shot a 60 at 600 yards. I got my first one there early last year and have only managed one more since.

All the best, and have fun. There are plenty of club members that are happy to give advice, but they won't be forthcoming unless you ask.

Buckshot
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#33 Postby Buckshot » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:47 pm

Thanks Alex,
Good to get a bit of local knowledge. Its 200 and 400 this Sunday? I won the handicap last saturday at 300 yd and got a free can o coke :D

Both the Peters out there have been helping with info on trigger control, etc and Im seeing my shooting improve already so I'm stoked.

Ive already recruited 1 new member and he joined on Saturday.
Looking forward to Sunday's shoot. Ive got 100 lapua brass coming tomorrow so its new brass, primers, I will try work up a load that shoots hopefully before then as i only have 45 starline brass left.... not enough to do both events.

Buckshot
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#34 Postby Buckshot » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:41 pm

Whats the word on this small primer Lapua brass? First time Ive tried it, i will have to see if my de priming pin needs a hit with the file to get through the smaller hole but what about my bolt firing pin?

Its just a standard howa factory pin, what do i need to watch out for with using it with small primer brass? Does it work like normal or is the firing pin bush needed?
Ive been waiting for weeks for the local gunshop to get more starline brass in that i ordered and Tamworth ony had lapua small primer so i got it along with a packet of cci450. Without a chrono im guessing my starline load was running around 2660 fps at 41grains with cci200's as it needed 26moa come up from 100 yards to hit at 900 yards. Anything special about looking for pressure signs on lapua brass with cci450 compared to large primer brass that im used to?

Thanks

Buckshot
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#35 Postby Buckshot » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:26 pm

Yep, had to file de priming pin, loaded up one at 40, 40.5, 41grains. All went bang. Cant see any problems with pressure so looks like I'm in business and ready to do a few groups :D

wsftr
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#36 Postby wsftr » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:24 am

SRP is really common in FTR with heavy bullets as it handles the pressure much better due to the extra metal around the flash hole. If comparing Lapua LRP to SRP Brass I've heard that the SRP brass has slightly more case volume and can need .5 grain more to achieve similar FPS.
Precision is just as good with SRP, personally my rifles have hammered with it.
SRP doesn't tend to show pressure the same as LRP especially if you run a bushed FP. Personally I think looking at primers for pressure signs is too subjective anyway.

GSells
Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#37 Postby GSells » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:30 am

Plenty of goof advice above so no need for me to say the same thing again . Only thing I can add is buy a good ballistics app such as JBM on your iPhone . After loading in all of your info and it must be correct ( eg rubbish in equals rubbish ) . You will see there is a pattern with wind speeds in MPH and a number you can devide to make a call in moa . Eg for me at 600 yds a 180 Berger at 2830 FPS I devide by 4 . So a 4 mph wind at full value spin drift corrected is 1 moa correction which is also edge of the 5 ring for a hold .
Actually from edge of 4 ring for centre correction is 1.5 moa and 5 ring is 1 moa ,6 ring is 1/2moa .

Buy a kestrel wind meter and hold it up to the flags in mph and see what they look like at different speeds. Same can be done with mirage and the kestrel maybe while taking the dog for a walk or try and guess the direction of mirage while driving when is safe to do so . Pull over and get a reading of the wind with the kestrel again . After a while you will get very good at reading direction and speed of mirage and also reading trees and vegetation.

Next with wind reading is what I call the wind / mirage reading pyramid.
Mirage is at its base and is king !
Next is near wind especially around your ears and near flags .
Top of the prymid of importance is far flags and butts flags .

Absolute importance should be placed on gullies and whether the flags or vegetation are upwind and are current too.

Best way to see it and I see the enthusiasm in your post ( reminds me of myself lol!) is treat like a trade in which you are the first year apprentice at the moment. It will be at least a 4 year learning curve to make tradesman ( or women ) and then 3 years after that of good informed learning and training to be skilled . Aim to get into team shooting ASAP and even nominate for state team shooting as this is where u will learn the most things . You may not make the state team but they wil develope you asa shooter if they see that enthusiasm and also see potential.

I have had so many people help me over the years . I was mad with drive in the early years . My first prize meet was the Nationals in b grade FS with a factory 20”Remington police . I eventually developed that rifle into an A grade rifle that would shoot the x ring out up to 900 yds . I now use it in prs shooting . But f class gave me the skills and this forum to do so !
Also keep saving for a dedicated f class rifle as you will see a huge improvement in your shooting when u do .
Best of luck and don’t ever loose that drive and enthusiasm. Always look at the positive in any situation as no matter what , you always learn something!!
Regards Graham Dalby/ Tara RC .
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Buckshot
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Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#38 Postby Buckshot » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:52 pm

Thanks Graham, I am working on getting a wind meter to plug into my app which is called ballistics arc. Can switch from mils,moa, or inches, and im finding it very handy here on the farm as it also uses google earth satelite images where i frequently gauge distance. Its a lot easier than my old school method of using my mildots to measure star pickets, cows backs, roo, fox height etc and calculate approx distance like that. As of right now i can sort of call a shot windage in moa out to 300 yards by feeling the wind on my face that takes care of my vermin control needs but calling the wind by feel is not up to x ring quality just yet. I work on a farm and the wind meter will be in my pocket daily to do just what you said once it arrives. Ive looked at pictures of flags and the angle they fly vs wind speed but havnt memorised those yet. Might print one off and hang it on the back of the dunny door :mrgreen:

It another thread you mentioned that gun had retarted timing with large jump to lands...?
Im interested to understand what you meant by that as Im about to start from scratch developing a load for the 400yd match this weekend with my new lapua brass.

At my current charge weight best groups appear to be liking long jumps to lands, does that mean my powder charge is off? I see most guys in our club either in the lands or say 20 thou off while im way out off them.

Currently this is how i work up a load:
I set a projectile 20 thou off lands and at 300 yards i shoot a ladder test of 10 rounds at a single aim point with increases of 0.3 grains powder each shot. If i see swipes, craters i stop there and look for 3 impacts at the same height on target and choose the middle one.

Then I load up 3 of each at 20 thou, 50 thou, 80,110,140,170,200 thou from lands then shoot them at 300 yards and choose the nicest shape, smallest group and call it good.

How do you or other f class shooters work up a load ?
Thanks

Buckshot
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#39 Postby Buckshot » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:10 pm

And what group size or shape do you like to see? And at what distance? Is it common to use different loads out of same gun to suit the different distances we see 300-900 yards or do guys just have one load for everything?

Buckshot
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#40 Postby Buckshot » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:18 pm

What about compensators? I was reading back through old theads and williada was saying something about a rifle that would automaticaly throw slow bullets higher or something like that so fast ones and slow ones hopefully all make it to the x ring. Ive never heard of that before but it sounds like good thing to have on the gun. Is that the sort of thing all the good guns, shooters use? Id like 2 on my gun. One to throw the slow ones higher... and another one sideways to throw my left fliers back over to the right :mrgreen:

wsftr
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#41 Postby wsftr » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:42 pm

everyone has their method of load dev. This link is a very good starting point and will take you where you need to go but at the same time keeping it simple. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... s.3814361/
There are OCW and ladder test methods too. Pick your poison, change one thing at a time and be methodical.
Compensators - mmm - positive compensation is its own subject - maybe read up on it but don't get hung up on it just yet - you can hit that x ring a lot of times without worrying about PC.

Buckshot
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#42 Postby Buckshot » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:59 pm

Plinked a couple 5 shot groups this arvo. One at 200 and one at 400yd.
Had .5 moa left wind dialed for 200 and 1.25 moa left wind for 400.
This is brand new lapua cases and going off the 8 moa comeup needed at 400 my velocity is way down. I might even use this load to fireform some brass at the 200yd but might need to fiddle a bit more powder into it for 400yd its like a shotgun :(

Image

GSells
Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#43 Postby GSells » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:43 pm

Ahhh Litrle Grashopper , you ask all the right questions !! Patience my little grasshopper!! Seriously though I will explain all of your questions!! But will take a few goes and Brisbane heat are playing tonight lol!

It’s funny as I used to do the same with mills and ranging out . I became very proficient at it and I first shot f class for some time in Miliradians which is a brilliant form for PRS and field . I vowed a solo career because of this lol! But found myself pushing for a National team posi and had to learn moa .
I don’t regret learning both !
Anyway cricket is calling !!

GSells
Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#44 Postby GSells » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:02 pm

Ok I’m between overs , here is a copy and paste from a post from Se Qld shooters f b page .
It says a few things but pick up on barrel timing part !! WAs written a while ago.

Which way to move the tuner , jumping , jamming , barrel timing and ocw:

First up a disclaimer: I have no accolades next to my name ! So take my theories as just that . They are just theories until proven!

Ok , when a tuner is installed, it is not much different than say a guitar.
In the way when you put your finger on the fret board and induce harmonics, you are modifying the frequency.

Tuners do the same thing ! Ok so I'm at a Queens and a cold front comes through! I can feel the load go off slightly as the rounds are now do 15 fps .
Which way to move it ? Well to modify the mode 2 and mode 1 harmonies. One would hope to slow done the vibrations. So moving the tuner forward a couple of notches would in theory would bring it back into tune. This would have to be something that it practiced at club level by deliberate down loading by
.1-.2 gr and chronied to see what a couple of notches longer would yield ?
That is why I stick to mass dampers ! As I would be under pressure, stuff it up and spin the tuner the wrong way and may even induce negative compensation! Ouch if that is at a Queens !
They are idiot proof ! But not perfect !

Jumping , jamming is not all that different to adjusting the timing on an engine ! Let's say for arguments sake 7.5 thou is top dead centre or neutral tune ! 10 thou or more is retarding the barrel harmonics timing and 7.5 or jamming is advancing barrel timing.

When the primer is struck , this the first hint of vibration that is sent down the guitar like barrel! Then the charge goes off thus sending a donut like harmonics down the barrel all the way to the muzzle , then torque harmonics happen as the pill starts to spin , mode 2 vibrations start going to the muzzle and back again , then mode 1 Barrel whip starts of . By fine tuning with seat depth, you are hoping that you can intersect the whole symphony of vibrations and get the bullet to exit at the perfect timing or tune . Hopefully slightly positive compensating .

Yes it's possible to shoot great groops at 500 yds but at 1000 it's just crap . Optimum charge weight is another important aspect!
I will add that you can have ocw and obt perfect and still fall over at 1000 as it goes into a dead speed zone .
A zone that wind Sheer and chopping conditions induce yaw and variable BC and thus vertical ! Not to mention 10-4 slope or aerodynamic jump!

Matt Paroz posted a group on Ozfclass (6mm dasher) that at 600 yds with crap sd shot really well !
But at the longs, the bad sd would catch up as the positive tune would run out of puff !

I'm quite open to scrutiny and friendly debate as this is where we all learn !
All of the above has come from learning in forums and brilliant minds like David Williams ( willaida ) .

GSells
Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: How to hit the bullseye at 900 yd?

#45 Postby GSells » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:22 pm

Buckshot wrote:And what group size or shape do you like to see? And at what distance? Is it common to use different loads out of same gun to suit the different distances we see 300-900 yards or do guys just have one load for everything?


Ok my opinion, jumping is for hunters lol! I’ve always advanced timed my loads for anything to do with target rifles from Factory to custom f class rifles . But i time my barrels with harmonic modifiers!
99 % of the time a load with soft seat of the lands to 10 thou jammed . Ideally you want the slower shots going hi and faster shots going low . In layman terms , you want your groups at 100 m or some say 140 m slightly anti nodal showing slight 12 o clock vertical. 11-5 vertical is obt that is slightly slow and groups showing 1-7 o’clock vertical are obt slightly faster . All three would shoot fine .
Here is some examples
image.jpg

image.jpg

Ok in the first group , that was the 280 ai with 2945 FPS load , about 15 shots over 3 separate days with my mag speed on . Which can throw some windage form attaching and detaching of the magspeed. But see the slight vertical in both groups ( also ignore the flyer that was me ) .

Then I look for optimum change weight. Which is speeds that are SD in single figures . 5 shots will give u and idea but 20 is the norm for a good sample . Me I work off 5 shots as a good load show up straight away. If it doesn’t I’ll ditch that load and try elsewhere. No use flogging a dead horse .

For many years and it still is very controversial and I’ve given up telling them that they work . And have started saying forget it they don’t work . Because everyone wants me to do a “ Bryan Litz “ forensic test that they work ! Yet I’ve seen no call for the same scrutiny for barrel tuners .
But they do work and work very much like a tuner is ORING TUNING .

It’s no magic bullet but just like a tuner and mass weight dampener extend the nodes and makes tuning very user friendly.
Easy way is buy some silicone tape from Bunnings. It is sort of strechy stuff that fixes water leaks. Comes in blue or black and sort of sticks to itself . Anyway wrap about 1 m of it around the middle of the barrel about 4” in length . Then run another band of silicone tape about a fist width from the muzzle and repeat step 1 again . You know when u are on a winner when the barrel when tapped with a non metallic item and gently strike the barrel and see if there is any harmonic noise and any vibrations threw the stock . If none thumbs up !!
You can do the same with orings and tuner or mass weight .
Here is some good reading that has been posted many times .
https://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

483194A9-2225-4D26-92C4-9DD5DF0A87A6.jpeg


Anyway, for one reason or another it induces or promoted positive compensation ! Most of the time !

Yes also is I have different loads for different ranges and have even different barrels and calibres specific for short to mid to longs and will change barrels on the fly! Something I did successfully in New Zealand. Getting proficient at barrel changing has taken a lot of work and practice!! And I really had to challenge myself to shoot clean bore at opms and Queens . Knowing where each barrel’s zero is and where it will impact is just hard work knowing where to compensate on your dials and first shot what elevation to hold off first shot . Yes a lot of R and D went into that !

But generally the first shot will be about 70 FPS slower . Plug that into your ballistics computer and you know where to hold up on target first shot .
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