300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

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Lee
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:17 pm

300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#1 Postby Lee » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:53 pm

Ok I know some use them, but if I was to use a 300 win mag or Wsm in a comp and got a high score capable of winning said comp, :lol: could I run into problems from protests about the muzzle energy being too high. Just have heard differing opinions and thought I would throw it out there in here to get a once and for all consensus. Im just back from a spell away from the comp shooting and know the rules have changed a bit since I last shot. Interested in the longer ranges and stretching an standard .308 to 1500 yards is doable but not ideal. I have looked at the 7mm Saum but the 300 win has caught my eye and I was just wondering about where I stand as far as muzzle energy and the current rules are concerned or is it a case of what range facility your shooting it at and the restrictions on which the range operates.
Cheers

Tim N
Posts: 980
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:18 pm
Location: Branxton NSW

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#2 Postby Tim N » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:54 am

Hi Lee,
Welcome back!
Different ranges have different energy limits, restricted by the safety template etc.
If you are within the limits and win - no problem at all.
The 300 windbag will certainly test your sensitivity to recoil though, good luck!
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

williada
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#3 Postby williada » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:39 am

Tim is absolutely right about the recoil. Rifle handling and balance cannot be ignored for fine accuracy now demanded in FO at long range. Shooter fatigue is an issue as we age and in long matches. My reamers for 30/378, 300 Win mag and 300 WSM do not get used these days, My 7 SAUM has greater flexibility with powders that can be used to load up or down to meet energy limits at various ranges and still retain superb accuracy and is a little easier in the recoil department. You can shoot it all day with 162 ELD's with great accuracy if they are sorted. The Berger 180 hybrids are great and produce the goods. Plenty of bullet choice now in 7 mm with Sierras and hopefully Ken's coming out soon. If there was a choice between the WSM and the Win Mag I would choose the WSM for more efficient ignition Lee. A lot also depends on the environment where you shoot.

ben_g
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#4 Postby ben_g » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:40 am

I have been toying with the idea of the 300WSM as my home range allows 5675joules (4186ft-lbs) of muzzle energy as does Ungarie and Coonabarabran.

I have been considering it only for use at the 1000-1500yard match-rifle events. With that energy limit you can utilise the 230gr Hybrids at around 2850fps, however a lot of ranges are limited to 3500fl/lbs which would severely handicap a 30cal.

I think the smart money is still on something 7mm with the SAUM being a very popular option, a 280AI would do a good job as well.
My current long range barrel is ‘only’ a straight 284, it comes down to if you miss a wind change your going to be pushed out of the centre no matter what cartridge your shooting.

Don’t underestimate the effect heavy recoil can have on accuracy, particularly the cumulative effect.
The straight 284 is very easy to shoot all day long, and has enough legs for the 1200yard game.

macguru
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:49 am

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#5 Postby macguru » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:46 pm

Well I have a 300wsm and with 210 or 215s its not much different to a saum. very little, in a target rifle. But if you were to shoot a 300 winmag with 230s in an AI or tactical rig it would kick the crap out of you ..... If you are in nsw the energy is ok but not bendigo or brisbane

Lee
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:17 pm

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#6 Postby Lee » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:39 pm

Hello and thank you for the Replies and information. My current L/R projectile is a .308, 208g Amax that has 49.4g of 2209 spitting it out of a 34 inch barrel at 2750fps and comes in at roughly 3505 ft-lbs. I used this for mainly 1200 yards in Aust. Match Rifle events on my home range at Campbelltown in Tazzy. The range comes under the .308 profile which limits it to 3500 Ft-Lbs however, I think there is a blind eye turned for the most part on small discrepancies and going too far over might be pushing a few friendships. This is why I was looking at the win mag, however it would be limited in the loads and projectiles able to be used. The 7mm Saum I know is used by a few people down here and I'm now wondering if this is the reason they opted for it over the win mag along with the recoil as mentioned above. My only concern would be the barrel life, but having said that I'm not sure a win mag would be much different. It looks like the 7mm's might have won the argument. As it wasn't mentioned Im guessing a 7mm-08 isn't going to be suffice. so back to Saum or .284. The main reason is for getting the new caliber was to shoot in the 1500 long range championships held here each year as its come in since I've had my little holiday, along with shooting the F-Class devision of the match rifle and any other long range events as they seem to be popping up more often. I still intend to use the .308 for ranges up to 1000 as I like shooting the F-Standard and have been using the same rig for a number of years with pretty good results before the cobwebs started to gather. The biggest question now would be Saum over .284 at 1500. :-k :-k

Tim N
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:18 pm
Location: Branxton NSW

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#7 Postby Tim N » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:52 pm

Saum
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

Lee
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:17 pm

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#8 Postby Lee » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:11 pm

Pretty convincing argument there Tim cheers. Looks like I will be getting a Saum. \:D/ Gotta love new toys. Now just to get it sorted before March.

ben_g
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#9 Postby ben_g » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:04 pm

If you want a 30cal I would forget the winmag and go the WSM, it has an excellent reputation for accuracy and with a 32-34” barrel will give you all the velocity your allowed on most ranges across the country.

And SAUM vs 284 for match rifle distances the SAUM has to get the nod.

Lee
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:17 pm

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#10 Postby Lee » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:23 pm

The main reason for looking at the win mag or WSM was for the caliber. Just to save having too many differing projectiles and dies for the press and as I have a short action mod 12 Savage and two barrels, it would of been a case of screwing one barrel out and a re-chambered one in then changing the bolt head from what I understand. 7mm means new barrel and if doing that then might as well go the whole hog and get a new action to go with it then get another stock made. So WSM could still be on the cards. ](*,) Just a matter of choosing the projectile and load carefully so I don't go over the range limits for muzzle energy

ben_g
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#11 Postby ben_g » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:23 pm

Your going to need new dies whether you go 30cal or 7mm

I wouldn’t have an old 30cal rechambered for the project so your up for a new barrel regardless. (Or do you have a brand new barrel blank on hand)

Tim N
Posts: 980
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:18 pm
Location: Branxton NSW

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#12 Postby Tim N » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:45 pm

To shoot 1500yds a 7-300wsm might be even better.
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

williada
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#13 Postby williada » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:56 am

Just adding to Ben's comments about a having an old 30 cal re-chambered and barrel length. Extreme long distance is a class of its own and if you want to be successful Lee unfortunately you have to run with the best gear to be competitive. An old barrel might have to sacrifice valuable inches. But there is an additional problem unless sufficient setback is made the new reamer will follow the old chamber. If the new chamber is bigger, then a boring bar set up before chambering can correct the issue. If there was misalignment, the outcome would be in-bore yaw for the projectile.

Commonly, using the same chambering, the throat is so eroded at six o'clock the piloted reamer will follow this deviation. If people have had a setback, just get a bore scope and see if the fresh cuts are round and not oval. If they are oval you can bet on the misaligned bullet slap wear leading the new reamer astray. That's why a barrel should not be left with a high round count for setback unless the gunsmith is highly experienced in this operation. This is more a problem for loads that are not jammed because they sit in the chamber if fully resized at the six o'clock position and so create the wear on ignition. Neck sizing avoids this problem particularly with collet dies. It is the reason why those in the know nip their chambers back about the 800 round mark and commonly re-crown ever 400 with just a touch up to maximise barrel life and performance. I often use my chamber reamer to scrape out just the carbon deposit with just a twirl of the fingers. Much better than trying to scrub out with paste a creating more problems.

A few guys where I live have replaced the Savage actions and their scores have improved for the long stuff. It all depends on how serious you want to be. Shooting the real longs just for fun is a great experience in its own right. I have never been a fan of switch barrels because there a few inconsistencies at the pointy end of harmonics getting it right each time a barrel is drawn up. This matters at the longs. At 1500 yards every little margin counts as we know right down to velocity numbers with a few feet a second spread.

AlexE
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 am

Re: 300 Winmag and WSM Yes or No

#14 Postby AlexE » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:55 am

macguru wrote:Well I have a 300wsm and with 210 or 215s its not much different to a saum. very little, in a target rifle


Ill second this. My 300wsm slinging 215s was not noticeably harder on the shoulder than my 284 Ackley was. Almost much of a muchness. Can say what the cumulative effect over 2 days shooting might be, however.


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