Problems with CCI 450s

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Tim L
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
Location: Townsville

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#31 Postby Tim L » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Trevor,
Just this weekend i kind of confirmed to myself that cci's are no good for foreforming.
I generally use br4s but through simple chance i decided to load some 6.5 slr cases for fireforming with feds. These worked fine. The next batch i loaded while loading 308 so i just popped br4s in the slr cases i got 3 to fire, out of about 15 (when i gave up (no missfires on the 308)). I pulled the rounds, reloaded with feds and all good again.
I loaded 25 x 308 rounds from the same pack of primers and got a bang for every one so it wasn't the primers..
Even though each missfire looked like it had been struck well, they just didn't go bang in the slr cases. I'm guessing the cci cups are just too hard,,,, or you need really heavy neck tension to get them to work when fireforming

basil
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#32 Postby basil » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:49 pm

Buy or borrow a quality depth micrometer, or dial depth gauge. Measure everything accurately, including firing pin protrusion. Math is your friend. Matt has provided all the measurement information required in his posts, thank you Matt.

basil
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#33 Postby basil » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:51 pm

Do the CCI primers measure differently to the Federal primers?

Brad Y
Posts: 2181
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:21 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#34 Postby Brad Y » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:29 pm

They have thicker cups. For fireforming brass on wildcat chambers- jam bullets, tighten neck tension a bit, dont overdo powder charge- just enough to form shoulders (remember brass hasn’t been work hardened yet and you can ruin primer pockets easy, use softer cup primers. FWIW rem 7.5, CCI BR4 and 450’s all have thicker cups to my knowledge.

Never had a 450 fail to fire ON PROPERLY SIZED CASES. Have had them fail to fire with firing pin spring/trigger/firing pin assembly issues. Been shooting since 2012 and pretty much always had a 6br or 308 in the cupboard that used 450’s. Problem seems to be very prevalent with people using barnards. Maybe thats because a lot of people use them, or could be issues with firing pin springs/assembly. If its a problem with the primers themselves, the only way to test would be use fired cases that have not been full length sized or shoulder bumped. Load and shoot. If they still fail to fire then you have eliminated any potential headspace issue and its either the primers or the firing pin assembly. After that time its then time to replace firing springs and make sure your bolt and trigger are clean inside and out and your not getting any mechanical issues. Once that is sorted then you can blame the primers. If primers are a problem for you, please feel free to change as it means more 450’s for me!

It’s so easy to blame other things in f class... wind, targets, barrels, bullets... not many people stand up and check the first thing that can go wrong- the human factor!

superx10
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:32 am

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#35 Postby superx10 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:08 am

The only primers that have not gon bang in about 40 years of shooting is just recently and I found the problem to be with the primers not being pushed all the way home. The cases are 6,5*284 necked up to 7mm and the primer pockets were very tight almost to the point of using the foster press to install them. At the time I was soft seating projectiles so this caused a chamber full of gun powder and frustration. Answer no more soft seating and make shore primers are pushed all the way home this leaves them about.5 of a mm in the case.

williada
Posts: 969
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#36 Postby williada » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:29 pm

Just had some of these fail going into a new rifle for the wife. As Brad suggested the cups are thick. Adjusted firing pin protrusion .010" to 0.055" and the problem went away in this scenario. The action was a round RPA with Belville washers, so the protrusion was first point of call with this musket.

Trevor Rhodes
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Woodbrook Vic.

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#37 Postby Trevor Rhodes » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:07 pm

I'm still using federals since last post and still no miss fires. Can the Barnard firing pins be adjusted? Someone told me there is a Barnard firing pin with washers like the RPA for sale, any idea who is selling them.

Matt P
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#38 Postby Matt P » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:18 pm

Trevor Rhodes wrote:I'm still using federals since last post and still no miss fires. Can the Barnard firing pins be adjusted? Someone told me there is a Barnard firing pin with washers like the RPA for sale, any idea who is selling them.

Trevor
Have you measured your pin protrusion ? I haven't seen a Barnard out of spec yet, but there's always a first.
Yes there is an aftermarket titanium pin available but the reduction in mass (wont help pin impact) and the increased bolt lift isn't very attractive.
Do you have misfires with neck sized only cases ?
Have you tried a different batch of 450 primers ?
I've fired 1000's of CCI450's in several Barnards and never had an issue, as the Australian distributor for Barnard products I'd like to get to the bottom of these issues and separate fact from fiction.
Regards
Matt Paroz

Cliff Austen
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:18 am
Location: Sydney NSW Australia

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#39 Postby Cliff Austen » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:57 pm

I too have fired 1000's of the 450's with absolutely no problems.
Another friend was having problems. On examination it was found that the internals of his bolt was lubricated with a heavy sticky grease.
We washed the bolt out and problem solved.
Obviously the firing pin was moving forward too slowly and not striking the primer hard enough.
Cheers. Cliff

williada
Posts: 969
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#40 Postby williada » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:03 pm

Trev, the quadlocks do throw a rounder group and require strong pressure from Belville washers to ensure shorter lock time compared to three lugs. But the down side is bag handling when machine gunning is required. Some years back I believe some guys reworked the pin and put a spring behind it. I like my Barnard's as they are. The wife is used to a heavy TR trigger and pace of shooting. I will top the gear with a scope and hopefully get a covert. I've got a few 450's, so they have to be used up.

scott/r
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
Location: far north brisbane

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#41 Postby scott/r » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:16 am

Matt P wrote:
Trevor Rhodes wrote:I'm still using federals since last post and still no miss fires. Can the Barnard firing pins be adjusted? Someone told me there is a Barnard firing pin with washers like the RPA for sale, any idea who is selling them.

Trevor
Have you measured your pin protrusion ? I haven't seen a Barnard out of spec yet, but there's always a first.
Yes there is an aftermarket titanium pin available but the reduction in mass (wont help pin impact) and the increased bolt lift isn't very attractive.
Do you have misfires with neck sized only cases ?
Have you tried a different batch of 450 primers ?
I've fired 1000's of CCI450's in several Barnards and never had an issue, as the Australian distributor for Barnard products I'd like to get to the bottom of these issues and separate fact from fiction.
Regards
Matt Paroz


Matt, I've only ever had trouble with br4 primer, not the 450. And only in my 223 with brand new brass. Never with fire formed brass. I got to the stage of running the projectiles at .030 jam and still had trouble. And I'm talking maybe 20% misfires. The last batch of new brass I went back to my standard .010 jam with federal match primers and never had a problem.
I use a forster shoulder bump neck die, bumping the shoulders .002, and once the brass has been fired, I don't have any problems with the br4. Head space, firing pin and bolt have all been checked and deemed ok. So we just came to the conclusion that I don't use cci primers in new brass and everyone is happy.
I've never had a problem with the br2 with new brass in my 308 though.
Scott

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#42 Postby KHGS » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:53 am

Trevor Rhodes wrote:I'm still using federals since last post and still no miss fires. Can the Barnard firing pins be adjusted? Someone told me there is a Barnard firing pin with washers like the RPA for sale, any idea who is selling them.


Strongly advise NOT going there!!!! I have returned a number of Barnard's back to standard firing pin after the owners had fitted the aftermarket units.
Keith H.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#43 Postby bruce moulds » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:34 pm

well put keith.
you lose more with belleville washers than you gain.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

wsftr
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#44 Postby wsftr » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:33 pm

you only need to strike it harder if you don't have much of a dent in the primer. If the primer has a large dent in it hitting it harder won't help.
In a lot of good dent but no bang situations I have looked at, I believe the primer can be seated much much deeper.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#45 Postby bruce moulds » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:45 pm

well if the primer is not seated correctly to the bottom of the pocket and "primed", you get what you deserve.
even if it goes bang, velocity s.d. will suffer.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM


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