High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

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pigdog
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:07 pm

High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#1 Postby pigdog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 pm

So I shoot with a fixed 12 power scope and am saving for a new scope slowly...My question is for those who shoot up here in Nth QLD or other places with heavy mirage how are you guys using scopes such as the nightforce comp, high power march scopes etc. I realise you can dial down the power but what I'm asking is, is it a waste of money to buy a scope with such high magnification for up here?? I saw a reference to someone on here who bought the march 8-80x and said the 80 power was a false economy as he was unable to use it, not sure where he was based.

I generally shoot around 9-11am or from 2-4pm usually at least 32C in summer with high humidity and 99% of the time out in the cane paddock the heat waves/mirage is so severe you can easily see it with the naked eye similar if you are looking down a bitumen road. I hang my steel plate painted bright white out at 600-700m and it is 45cmx45cm sometimes it just looks like a white blur in these conditions. My scope whilst not of march quality for all accounts is a good scope with decent glass. The target will appear to be like a white shirt hanging on a clothes line flapping around in heavy wind.

Is the nightforce comp 55 power unusable on all but raining days up here for those that have it? If so what is the most power that you can get away with up here? Or are you guys simply trained to crank up the power and just shoot through these conditions?

thanks

UL1700
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:39 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#2 Postby UL1700 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:23 pm

I have the 8-80 in victoria and have never fired a shot at 80x. That said the guy I purchased it off (only sold as he retired from shooting) claimed he often used 80x but I have yet to find suitable conditions. I do use 55 to 60 on rare occasion but the last OPM I shot at I was down around 15 to 20. I recently started experimenting with a mirage disk which I like. It certainly isn't a magic bullet but like all good shiny bits and cup holders it makes me feel better therefore I shoot better therefore it worth having in LOL

For my FTR rifle I will be getting the March 10-60x56 highmaster when I can find the $$$Ss

willow
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#3 Postby willow » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:07 pm

I'd rather have the extra magnification available and not need it, than need it and not have it. I can only imagine how bad the mirage is up north, but if you get the occasional overcast day and the mirage disappears, you'll enjoy the extra magnification for sure.

ben_g
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#4 Postby ben_g » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:43 pm

I have an 8-80 March.

My home range has very low mounds in a dried out paddock so mirage is usually pretty bad even in winter.
Last weekend was 1000yards and early in the afternoon I could not resolve any rings in the target, just a black blob wobbling and moving up/down/sideways in the scope. I tried a stage at around 35x and the second stage at 20x groups were equally big in both stages which I put down to poor sighting conditions.
My dad shot a stage with my rifle from the bench which gives a much better sighting picture being higher off the ground and his group was definitely tighter.

Two weeks ago at 800yards again with heavy mirage I did the same thing with power at 45x in the first stage and just under 30x in the second stage but with significantly improved group size on the second stage (rings could be relatively easily resolved that day however)

I am uncertain if winding the power back helps to reduce sighting error, it certainly makes he target look a little more still. I think with the March modifier disk in place and the power wound back I am able to more easily read the mirage as I feel I can see more of the ‘depth’ of the mirage at lower settings.

I would love to know what some of the top shots do, particularly at the longs when mirage is very bad, for me it just seems to make groups open up no matter what I do to my scope settings, it’s a condition that I have yet to be able to master.

As for an 8-80 March it’s a rare day you get to use 70-80x, I have used the extreme end of the zoom on a few circumstances and it was good fun and great to be able to pick a bullet hole at 600yardd. But for normal shooting 99% of the time I have found around 50-55power is where my scope is set during winter and progressively wind lower as temps warm up and the paddock get more brown.

Mozzie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:47 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#5 Postby Mozzie » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:35 pm

Pig dog
Keep saving,your already half way there by having the right mindset.
Question is what is right for you?
I brought a night force 15x55 when magnum had them on special earlier thIs year. Have used 55 power numerous times but as the weather warms up I find 30 to 35 is about as high as I want due to mirage in tropical cairns. So yes buy what you can afford, but don’t wish you could have a little more, better to wait and save a little more.
My truck doesn’t run on love, it runs on diesel.
However, I love my rifle and it runs on lead. #-o

sungazer
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:58 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#6 Postby sungazer » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:47 pm

ben_g wrote:
I am uncertain if winding the power back helps to reduce sighting error, it certainly makes he target look a little more still.


This is something I would really like to know as well.

Mirage is often compared to the spoon in a glass of water I understand that may just to be illustrate two substances of different de fraction indices.

So mirage is as I understand it hot air that has one de fraction indicie and cold air that has another. These two are of course often mixing as hot air rises. This I assume is a boiling mirage and the effect can be that the target appears in a different position in the vertical plane than it really is.

Then when the wind blows maybe the two layers dont mix as much?

I have seen the target appear to move as in a snap back type of effect.

Anyway if someone could explain if the effect is a constant and should / can be adjusted for? And can it be eliminated minimized by winding the magnification back?

GSells
Posts: 339
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#7 Postby GSells » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:01 pm

I shoot mainly 25 x , 40x in perfect conditions, sometimes even 15x if it’s a real washing machine mirage. I’ve never used 55x on my scope as of yet .

RDavies
Posts: 1933
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: Singleton NSW

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#8 Postby RDavies » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:26 pm

I have found there are two distinct groups of shooters. Those who see mirage and those who don't.
Those who do see mirage will be the ones, who at shoots will be talking about how they couldn't see the target at 55-60x like some were using, so wound back to 15-20X. They often seem to be the people who are describing watching the mirage speed up slightly, slow down, change direct and do all sorts of thing which some of us just don't see even if we wind down to the same power.

The other group are the non see'rs, who spend most of the time wound up to 55-60x even in warm weather and very rarely wind down below 40-45x. Even if they wind down these people just don't see mirage do all the things the mirage see'rs see. I am one of those who can wind up to 55-60x 95% of the time and see the target pretty well, but I cant read mirage very well. (actually, maybe 2-3 times I have seen mirage just how the see'rs say they see it, not sure why as there was nothing remarkable about those days)

A while back, I spent quite a bit of time with various spotting scopes on my back deck over summer, trying to read mirage. After spending quite a few lazy afternoons on my back deck watching mirage with trees, houses, roofs, power lines etc as a back drop, my view of mirage only slightly improved. It seems some minds filter out the picture your eyes send them different to others. It seems the see'rs brains don't filter out the information as much, while others filter out a lot of the clutter and average out the picture. (or something like that).

One example of this is a few years back there was the internet phenomenon on that dress which some saw as blue and black, which others saw as orange and black. Each different group was saying the other group was on drug, it was obviously orange and black, while the other group was saying they were stupid, it was obviously blue and black. (I saw it in each different colour at different times, I think depending on whether I had just done nightshift, not sure??) Just like the low magnification group vs the high magnification group. It all came down to how their brains interpreted or filtered the information.


Anyhoo, back to what I do to reduce mirage. I also use those modifier disks which help (for me anyway) on the really bad days. Another suggestion in light winds, warm, sunny weather, is mirage shades. In winter (even a FNQ winter), you can leave the gun out behind the line without the barrel getting hot all by itself. Compare that to this time of year, where the barrel gets too hot, just leaving it laying behind the line, even without shooting the thing. Add a 15 shot string and your scope will be looking right over the top of a sticking hot, mirage inducing barrel.

ben_g
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#9 Postby ben_g » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:26 pm

sungazer wrote:
ben_g wrote:
I am uncertain if winding the power back helps to reduce sighting error, it certainly makes he target look a little more still.


This is something I would really like to know as well.

Mirage is often compared to the spoon in a glass of water I understand that may just to be illustrate two substances of different de fraction indices.

So mirage is as I understand it hot air that has one de fraction indicie and cold air that has another. These two are of course often mixing as hot air rises. This I assume is a boiling mirage and the effect can be that the target appears in a different position in the vertical plane than it really is.

Then when the wind blows maybe the two layers dont mix as much?

I have seen the target appear to move as in a snap back type of effect.

Anyway if someone could explain if the effect is a constant and should / can be adjusted for? And can it be eliminated minimized by winding the magnification back?



Yes I could watch that effect on Saturday.
Was chasing the ‘centre’ of the target with the seb joystick up and down, was steadily moving up and down. Was also a lazy switching headwind up to 2.5points either side of centre.

I think when the mirage runs steadily in a decent breeze elevation does not seem to suffer as badly as mirage almost boiling then lazing side to side. Was hell on elevation on Saturday anyway.

williada
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#10 Postby williada » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:38 pm

In heavy mirage don't be afraid to wind the scope back. Yes 12 -15 power folks! With older eyes the amount of light hitting the pupil is critical for target definition. I wrote this up awhile back. Not only does the heavy mirage give an apparent aiming mark shift it creates a definition problem akin to light down sights down in relation to where you tend to aim when a picture is poor (i.e.) because there is a tendency to aim higher; yet the apparent aiming mark shift in a boiling mirage is down so the sights must come up if you could see it. The see saw effect simply adds to vertical. The best compromise solution is to lower the power to get better definition and use a cross hair rather than a dot. The can eye accommodates the the division of the black aiming mark into quadrants more easily and as such is a more precise aim in these conditions. It's a matter of training to accommodate the sight picture and shot release. If you always shoot in conditions of high density mirage you don't need anything above 20 power.

We all see scope shooters come back to TR shooters at the longs in these conditions. I think it was Jim Carmichael (USA) said that at 1000 yards a scope has a 15% advantage over iron sights in clear conditions. This goes out the window when the picture becomes unclear. I was always taught to centre a blur in other disciplines that use iron sights and to focus on the front sight. Now that cross hair shooting on low power is not much different and the light effects are the same as distinct from apparent aiming mark shifts.

Too often the sight picture is muddied with false mirage coming off the barrel. Use a mirage shield on hot days along the barrel that is concave along its length so you can see the mirage at the target where it is read.

Brad Y
Posts: 2017
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:21 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#11 Postby Brad Y » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:20 pm

I like to use my nf comp on 40x if I can, because at that magnification the reticle works in MOA, but in summer it’s not rare to wind it back to 20. If I can get it cranked up to 55 I still like winding it back to 40 for the reason above. Good fun to be able to put a few minutes wind on your gun and just aim on another mark to make onlookers scratch their heads

GSells
Posts: 339
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#12 Postby GSells » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:01 am

RDavies wrote:I have found there are two distinct groups of shooters. Those who see mirage and those who don't.
Those who do see mirage will be the ones, who at shoots will be talking about how they couldn't see the target at 55-60x like some were using, so wound back to 15-20X. They often seem to be the people who are describing watching the mirage speed up slightly, slow down, change direct and do all sorts of thing which some of us just don't see even if we wind down to the same power.

The other group are the non see'rs, who spend most of the time wound up to 55-60x even in warm weather and very rarely wind down below 40-45x. Even if they wind down these people just don't see mirage do all the things the mirage see'rs see. I am one of those who can wind up to 55-60x 95% of the time and see the target pretty well, but I cant read mirage very well. (actually, maybe 2-3 times I have seen mirage just how the see'rs say they see it, not sure why as there was nothing remarkable about those days)

A while back, I spent quite a bit of time with various spotting scopes on my back deck over summer, trying to read mirage. After spending quite a few lazy afternoons on my back deck watching mirage with trees, houses, roofs, power lines etc as a back drop, my view of mirage only slightly improved. It seems some minds filter out the picture your eyes send them different to others. It seems the see'rs brains don't filter out the information as much, while others filter out a lot of the clutter and average out the picture. (or something like that).

One example of this is a few years back there was the internet phenomenon on that dress which some saw as blue and black, which others saw as orange and black. Each different group was saying the other group was on drug, it was obviously orange and black, while the other group was saying they were stupid, it was obviously blue and black. (I saw it in each different colour at different times, I think depending on whether I had just done nightshift, not sure??) Just like the low magnification group vs the high magnification group. It all came down to how their brains interpreted or filtered the information.


Anyhoo, back to what I do to reduce mirage. I also use those modifier disks which help (for me anyway) on the really bad days. Another suggestion in light winds, warm, sunny weather, is mirage shades. In winter (even a FNQ winter), you can leave the gun out behind the line without the barrel getting hot all by itself. Compare that to this time of year, where the barrel gets too hot, just leaving it laying behind the line, even without shooting the thing. Add a 15 shot string and your scope will be looking right over the top of a sticking hot, mirage inducing barrel.


I think u nailed that explanation !
I remember when you were up at Belmont a couple Years ago, I shot my rifle at 1000 yds and I had to shoot on 20x . I then gave u my rifle to shoot and you wacked it up the 55 x and shot a good score !!
When I saw you turn up the power, I was just amazed how you could still shoot so well!

Maybe you have the brain power to be able to see the target snap back ?? And I don’t lol?

sungazer
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:58 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#13 Postby sungazer » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:39 am

Sounds like Mr Davies has some very strange eyes to me. :D

pigdog
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:07 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#14 Postby pigdog » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:01 am

Thanks for all the responses everyone certainly seems to be some very different approaches. Unfortunately where I shoot there is no shade protection at all I have to lay down on the headlands of a cane paddock so my gun is sitting in the sun the whole time. I don't however shoot 15 shot string fast I generally pace my shots out one every 3 mins or so. The mirage in winter is almost as bad as a summer day up from my observations maybe that's because the temp fluctuates very little from summer to winter (ie its still hot in FNQ winter relative to other places).

The supervisor at home has given the approval to spend as much as I want on a scope....only condition is I have to save for it so it depends how patient/how long I want to save for. My research has led me to 2 different trains of thought f class type scopes nightforce comp scopes and march scopes and possibly schmidt and bender 12x50. Or the prs type scopes ie night force atacr or Schmidt and bender 5x25 pm2 etc. Both have there advantages and disadvantages. I prefer to work in mils as I know metres, centimetres etc everything dividable by 10, .1 clicks at 300m = 3cm or 600m=6cm is very easy. The Schmidt and bender 12x50 is available in 0.25mil clicks which certainly has my interest.

I don't shoot prs or f class or bench rest I like to consider my shooting a mongrel form of shooting implementing a bit of all 3. I always shoot prone (f class) however my gun is more of a prs style ie atlas bi pod rear squeeze bag, yet I like to try shoot groups (benchrest). I think bench rest and f class shooters are at the cutting edge of accuracy so I like to take a very close look at the scopes you guys use (ie way higher power than the prs world).

Thanks again

GSells
Posts: 339
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: High power scopes and NQ mirage!!

#15 Postby GSells » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:43 am

Pig dog , vortex viper pst 6-24 x?? In mils is a great scope for the money. I have one on my edge and I prefer over my 32x NF nxs ( which is just sitting in a box at the moment) . Hope that helps .
Ps I do shoot in Mils too! ( I go Both ways lol! :shock:)


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