I did a search and found nothing on this site but on the internet opinions seem to vary considerably..... I now have my brand new Savage 12 F/TR. Do I do a break in procedure or not?
There are a lot of people (some 'well known') who say barrel break in is a myth while others promote anywhere from 10 to 100+ round routines of shooting and cleaning. Of those in the "break in" group there seems to be a further mix of bonze brush or solvent only people. Local club member opinions also vary and although I would like to follow the advice of known gunsmiths does the routine change from custom to factory barrels?
I tend to agree with the arguments put forward by the 'its a myth' group but really don't know any better. I don't want to start any flame wars but I don't want to 'ruin' a barrel. What is a novice to do?
Cheers
David
Barrel Break-in question
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higginsdj
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I dont think a break in can really hurt a barrel. You read top brands like krieger and lilja both recommend a break in so why would you not take the time to do it. Probably need to read up on the savage to see if they recommend it. Your only going to clean it later anyway and more than likely it will foul a bit more in the first session of shooting than it would after a few hundred rounds. Plenty of info on here regarding cleaning and run in procedures.
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RAVEN
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Hi David
It’s simply what do you have to loose by doing it
The truth is that there are tooling marks in the throat it doesn’t matter how good the smith is there will always be there.
What you are trying to do is polish these out and also the rest of the bore fowling is less likely to build up as quickly.
The process most use is fire
1X shot then clean do this for 3 - 4 shots
Fire 2X shots then clean do this for 2-3 cycles
Fire 3X shot then clean 2 cycles
Fire 5 shots then clean 2 cycles
You should notice that the fowling if any will come out allot easier.
Then go shoot it clean ever 10 shot for the first few goes
It is important to us a good bore cleaner products my personal choice is KG cleaning system.
Use a good quality cleaning rod
Use a good quality bore guide
http://www.kgcoatings.com/cleaning/
Use bronze brush by all means push through and remove once past muzzle never pull back over crown.
Nylon brushes work well especially with KG as the chemical does all the work.
Good Luck
Cheers
RB
It’s simply what do you have to loose by doing it
The truth is that there are tooling marks in the throat it doesn’t matter how good the smith is there will always be there.
What you are trying to do is polish these out and also the rest of the bore fowling is less likely to build up as quickly.
The process most use is fire
1X shot then clean do this for 3 - 4 shots
Fire 2X shots then clean do this for 2-3 cycles
Fire 3X shot then clean 2 cycles
Fire 5 shots then clean 2 cycles
You should notice that the fowling if any will come out allot easier.
Then go shoot it clean ever 10 shot for the first few goes
It is important to us a good bore cleaner products my personal choice is KG cleaning system.
Use a good quality cleaning rod
Use a good quality bore guide
http://www.kgcoatings.com/cleaning/
Use bronze brush by all means push through and remove once past muzzle never pull back over crown.
Nylon brushes work well especially with KG as the chemical does all the work.
Good Luck
Cheers
RB
You can truncate the procedure somewhat if there is no copper at all when using say sweets copper solvent. My 308 savage left no copper at all from the first shot, the 223 savage did for the first 3 shots but its now an excellent barrel. The shilen match grade replacement for the 308 never deposited any copper at all
(copper of course shows up as a blue mark on the patch with this solvent)
andrew
(copper of course shows up as a blue mark on the patch with this solvent)
andrew
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higginsdj
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bartman007
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Use bronze brush by all means push through and remove once past muzzle never pull back over crown.
Hello Raven,
Just a quick question about your comment above. I have been cleaning with a bronze brush for years, and NEVER take it off as it protrudes out the end of the barrel. That way I get to scrub the barrel in both directions (12 times for a day's shoot).
I thought the SS barrel hardness was way over that of the Bronze brush, so damage should not occur to the crown.
Do you or others have any opinions about this?
Bartman007
My utmost respect goes to Keith Hills as his reputation as a smith is fantastic. However Im wary of his break in and clean procedure only as it lists short scrub as a powder solvent. I havent seen anything other than the abrasive cleaner short scrub defoul marketed and this stuff will polish out rifling if not used correctly. A mate used that method and stuffed his barrel as he thought he needed to clean with it each time he went shooting. There wasnt much rifling left at the muzzle end and the chamber end has a couple of lands worn away. I do think though it was part fault of the local shop to sell people these sorts of cleaning products if they are unsure of how or when to use them. Seen another 223 barrel recently that had little to no rifling left for an inch in front of the chamber. These abrasive products are great for cleaning carbon out but if they get used in the wrong way or too often you will ruin the barrel.
The method that Raven suggests is probably more suitable. Solvents such as Boretech Eliminator or shooters choice remove powder fouling as well as copper. Eliminator does 99% of the work for me and every 100 rounds I use the iosso bore paste to remove the caked on carbon that builds up around the throat. Quite often between shoots when it has been working well I wont clean it until it goes off the boil a bit.
When I get a new barrel, I give it a few passes back and forth in the throat area with the really fine pink autosol paste. Its finer than the white paste which needs to be used with caution. I use plenty of oil when doing this as well. From there it gets cleaned out with eliminator, and lightly oiled for the first shot. Luckily I have access to a mates bore scope so we shoot a shot then look inside the barrel. If we see no copper we will do another light oil patch and fire again. We will do another if we see no copper again. Then I will clean the black residue out with eliminator and do it all again this time only oiling before the first shot. Once Im happy that there is little or no copper buildup I will take it out and start load development. If I come across an area of stubborn copper, I will remove it with eliminator or sweets if it needs it, then go back to the autosol treatment and start again. Im not happy to use a barrel until its working properly. That means shooting consistently, cleaning up easily and doesnt collect any large copper deposits.
We have tried a few different products when running barrels in. Light rem oil, tetra oil, trefolex cutting oil. All seem to do similar things. The trefolex was an experiment on my tight 308 barrel and I believe it helped run it in significantly. It took a hundred or so shots at least to get that barrel working to how I wanted. My 223 barrel collected copper for a dozen shots then stopped and it now seems to work well. Both are kriegers.
I suggest you take the time to do it and look after your new rifle. Hopefully it returns the favour with many X's.
The method that Raven suggests is probably more suitable. Solvents such as Boretech Eliminator or shooters choice remove powder fouling as well as copper. Eliminator does 99% of the work for me and every 100 rounds I use the iosso bore paste to remove the caked on carbon that builds up around the throat. Quite often between shoots when it has been working well I wont clean it until it goes off the boil a bit.
When I get a new barrel, I give it a few passes back and forth in the throat area with the really fine pink autosol paste. Its finer than the white paste which needs to be used with caution. I use plenty of oil when doing this as well. From there it gets cleaned out with eliminator, and lightly oiled for the first shot. Luckily I have access to a mates bore scope so we shoot a shot then look inside the barrel. If we see no copper we will do another light oil patch and fire again. We will do another if we see no copper again. Then I will clean the black residue out with eliminator and do it all again this time only oiling before the first shot. Once Im happy that there is little or no copper buildup I will take it out and start load development. If I come across an area of stubborn copper, I will remove it with eliminator or sweets if it needs it, then go back to the autosol treatment and start again. Im not happy to use a barrel until its working properly. That means shooting consistently, cleaning up easily and doesnt collect any large copper deposits.
We have tried a few different products when running barrels in. Light rem oil, tetra oil, trefolex cutting oil. All seem to do similar things. The trefolex was an experiment on my tight 308 barrel and I believe it helped run it in significantly. It took a hundred or so shots at least to get that barrel working to how I wanted. My 223 barrel collected copper for a dozen shots then stopped and it now seems to work well. Both are kriegers.
I suggest you take the time to do it and look after your new rifle. Hopefully it returns the favour with many X's.
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RAVEN
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macguru
Sweets is a good indicator for copper and that’s about it.
It doesn’t remove copper with out rigorous agitation with O2 less mechanical abrasion is better for barrels.
I used to leave TETRA gun oil in one of my barrels once I had thorough cleaned with Butch's bore shine when I patched out a week later to shoot I got a copper blue green on the patch interesting isn’t it.
bartman007
You would be better doing it with a nylon brush
any slight nick or mark on the crown can effect accuacy get a magnifing glass and have a look.
This is why I use KG the chemical does all the work and it is a cleaning system not a one bottle miracle fluid (because there isn’t any such thing)
BTW copper fouling is a good thing as long as it is consistent and even copper is a gilding metal it lubricates the next projy down the barrel
Carbon on the other hand is not good this can build up and create tights spots in the throat and or barrel this is were those odd elevation shot can come from.
Have a look at this test (for chemical removal of copper)
http://www.jarheadtop.com/KG12_Test_Results.htm
BTW KG12 can be left in stainless steel barrels as long as you wish it doesn’t affect the steel in anyway. The important thing is to have the bore totally degreased as KG12 is a water base chemical it will not work if oil or solvent residue is still present.
Unfortunately some people will be a little gob smack to realise that their favourite concoction does bugger all.
At the end of the day you do what ever you feel comfortable with something that are right for one are not necessarily right for another.
RB
Sweets is a good indicator for copper and that’s about it.
It doesn’t remove copper with out rigorous agitation with O2 less mechanical abrasion is better for barrels.
I used to leave TETRA gun oil in one of my barrels once I had thorough cleaned with Butch's bore shine when I patched out a week later to shoot I got a copper blue green on the patch interesting isn’t it.
bartman007
You would be better doing it with a nylon brush
any slight nick or mark on the crown can effect accuacy get a magnifing glass and have a look.
This is why I use KG the chemical does all the work and it is a cleaning system not a one bottle miracle fluid (because there isn’t any such thing)
BTW copper fouling is a good thing as long as it is consistent and even copper is a gilding metal it lubricates the next projy down the barrel
Carbon on the other hand is not good this can build up and create tights spots in the throat and or barrel this is were those odd elevation shot can come from.
Have a look at this test (for chemical removal of copper)
http://www.jarheadtop.com/KG12_Test_Results.htm
BTW KG12 can be left in stainless steel barrels as long as you wish it doesn’t affect the steel in anyway. The important thing is to have the bore totally degreased as KG12 is a water base chemical it will not work if oil or solvent residue is still present.
Unfortunately some people will be a little gob smack to realise that their favourite concoction does bugger all.
At the end of the day you do what ever you feel comfortable with something that are right for one are not necessarily right for another.
RB
Hi all,
have a look at Border Barrels site at how they shoot in a barrel, if you follow there guidlines it would take over a week. http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/shoot-in.htm
Phill
have a look at Border Barrels site at how they shoot in a barrel, if you follow there guidlines it would take over a week. http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/shoot-in.htm
Phill
Raven thats a pretty impressive link. Ive wanted to try the KG12 for a while, but have been happy enough with the boretech eliminator. A mate uses shooters choice and it looks to work well after looking down his barrels. Heck even the good old hoppes still works if you give it a good rub into the barrel with a brush and leave it sit for a day then patch it out. The main thing we look for is individual copper deposits when running in and that hard caked on carbon that builds up in the throat once you get a decent number of rounds out of it.
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RAVEN
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Brad y
I think most bore solvents will work with different process to achieve the desired result.
One thing I will say is KG will get the barrel spotless using the proper process.
Now the big ?? Is that what the barrel likes?
To shoot or group well probably not.
Some barrels group tighter the more rounds you put down them some only go 10 or 20 round before spewing rounds all over the place.
I lost a Queens once by not cleaning my barrel it had gone 7 ranges but the 8th was my undoing Alan F will remember it well I think it was the first No. 1 badge he won and had to do it in a shoot off.
Brad the KG2 is a great product for polishing throats and bores it’s an abrasive in oil no were as aggressive as JB products.
Some carbi cleaners also do a good job of removing carbon build up.
Cheers
RB
I think most bore solvents will work with different process to achieve the desired result.
One thing I will say is KG will get the barrel spotless using the proper process.
Now the big ?? Is that what the barrel likes?
To shoot or group well probably not.
Some barrels group tighter the more rounds you put down them some only go 10 or 20 round before spewing rounds all over the place.
I lost a Queens once by not cleaning my barrel it had gone 7 ranges but the 8th was my undoing Alan F will remember it well I think it was the first No. 1 badge he won and had to do it in a shoot off.
Brad the KG2 is a great product for polishing throats and bores it’s an abrasive in oil no were as aggressive as JB products.
Some carbi cleaners also do a good job of removing carbon build up.
Cheers
RB
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Cameron Mc
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phillh wrote:Hi all,
have a look at Border Barrels site at how they shoot in a barrel, if you follow there guidlines it would take over a week. http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/shoot-in.htm
Phill
Phill, you will find barrel makers will have their own technique as far as break in goes.
I spoke to Nev Madden about this some years ago and he suggested these techniques are based on opinion, not science. I totally agree.
I use Nev's method. I shot, clean. 2 shots clean. 3 shots, clean. 2x 5 and clean. Then you are in business. I have used this for many barrels without problems.
There is no way I would spend one week breaking in a barrel
Just my opinion
Cameron
phillh wrote:Hi all, have a look at Border Barrels site at how they shoot in a barrel, if you follow there guidlines it would take over a week. http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/shoot-in.htm Phill
Reads more like they fired one shot per day over 5 days. So ten minutes per shot and clean = 50 minutes spread over a "week".
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AlanF
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Brad Y wrote:My utmost respect goes to Keith Hills as his reputation as a smith is fantastic. However Im wary of his break in and clean procedure only as it lists short scrub as a powder solvent. I havent seen anything other than the abrasive cleaner short scrub defoul marketed and this stuff will polish out rifling if not used correctly. ...
Brad,
The only Short Scrub I've seen is not an abrasive, but is a very good powder solvent. I'm sure Keith would be referring to the solvent.
Alan
Cameron is on the right track. I've sold around 500 Maddco barrels plus the ones I have used myself and probably run in a couple of hundred. I've always used Sweets, which is definitely a "copper remover". It does need to be used liberally, but not "vigourously". Leave it "soak" in the barrel for 5 to 10 minutes after each group of shots. It's not a bad idea to clean after each match for about 300 rounds.
Greg Warrian.
Greg Warrian.
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