F-Class World Championships 2017

Results, photos of recent events, plan future events, let people know where you'll be competing.

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KHGS
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#271 Postby KHGS » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:11 am

John T wrote:Hello Family.

Five FCWC over 15 years; not a long tradition, but one with a steep improvement curve. Look how the margins have reduced.

2009 Bisley.
Great Britain...3436-230
USA..............3377-234 (-59)
South Africa....3337-188 (-40) (-99) 2.281%

2013 Raton.
Australia........3490-339
USA..............3475-308 (-15)
South Africa....3445-267 (-30) (-45) 1.289%

2017 Ottawa.
Australia........3511-342
Canada..........3506-346 (-5)
USA..............3500-350 (-6) (-11) 0.313%
"..the nearest run thing you ever saw." (Arthur Wellesley. 1769-1852)

This was akin to a 3-way photo for the placings in the Melbourne Cup, with the Judge calling for a second and then a third print. Declared margins; a short half-nose by a short half-nose.

How did Australia prevail in such an impossibly close contest? There are answers, but unlikely to be told.

A simplistic answer is that at 900-1, Australia scored 565 to USA 554 (-11) and at 700-2 Australia scored 599 to Canada 590 (-9).

The coaches have been given their tick. What about the shooters and their gear?

A general question is, why have the margins closed? In F Open, the answer must be technical development and catch-up. Top coaches, tick; top shooters, tick. Top gear, you win. (There is more ,but, later.)

Regards,
John Tracey.


All of the above is quite correct john, but lets not forget management!! Good management creates cohesion & binds a team together.
Keith H.

SteveL
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#272 Postby SteveL » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:54 am

Hi John,
Love the stats you are putting up, I suppose some mean a lot and some don't mean so much.
Either way it is interesting. As you know winning one of these puts you on high that is hard to describe and also makes you think about future teams and if you want to be a part of them!
In my opinion this is where the FOpen team did so well, with Dave Mac guiding the NRAA in selecting a team in top form, full of team players, and then passing on invaluable knowledge to Craig to Finnish the job in Canada.
Keith you are correct in what you say, the FOpen team had that cohesion well before we left for Canada and it showed as soon as we got down to business.

John T
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#273 Postby John T » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:05 pm

ALL RATONIANS!

Check SBS at 7.30 for "Great American Railroad Journeys". It might be going over the Raton Pass tonight.

BATattack
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#274 Postby BATattack » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:52 pm

jasmay wrote:I Would have to echo Scott's sentiment here, it was a fantastic range, the facilities were great and the military personal were quite welcoming/forgiving all things considered. If you take into account probably over 500 civies "invaded' their base with all manner of firearms and vehicle, and tested the boundaries they were very forgiving.

Issues were handled well, in particular the rained out 800m shoot.

The flag missing was a minor concern IMO, it affected all shooter equally, and really Mirage was the key of the range anyway.

Scott and crew did a fantastic job, they set the bar for S.A. which wont make their job of hosting in 2021 an easy one.


agreed 100% Jason!

Scott you organised a huge event and managed any issues along the way EXCEPTIONALLY well!

I really enjoyed the events and as Rod mentioned we had it easy with everything close and convenient with great weather bar one afternoon. Looking at all the things traveling shooters require I think a lot of international shooters would enjoy an event in Brisbane. Multiple ranges within minutes of the main range for testing, accommodation, great weather, convenient access to quality components and loading supplies and 15min from the CBD for shopping dining etc to keep the family happy as well :-)

regards

Adam

John T
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#275 Postby John T » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:01 pm

Hello family.

"It matters not how well you shoot if the angel pees on your pan." (Prussian soldiers,1815)

The core group knew that Australia needed improved gear if it was to be competitive at Connaught.

Australian R & D was taken up by R.D. With some help from his friends, Rod developed shooting systems that, at the least, held their own at the 2017 FCWC. Having the same barrels and scopes on most (all?) rifles must have helped the Team.

The shooter and the rifle on the mound are an indivisible unit of accuracy (UOA), in F Open competition. This is not 100/200 yard bench rest where the performances of shooter and rifle can be gauged separately.

Can the level of UOA for each Team be extracted from the results? No idea. You need to ask Peter Smith and Dave McNamara. To cut the Gordian knot, I have applied the First Rule of Advanced Statistics; "If you cannot find your answer in the statistics, change the statistics." I also used the Folium of Descartes, with manipulation, to make it all fit.

The personal scores of all shooters in each Team (48 shooters) to count are:-
Individual FCWC;
Team, Day Two. (Day One is excluded because there were too many stumbles, fumbles and bumbles.)

Each aggregate is adjusted by converting the small ring from "count-out" to "value", 6 points.
Add the two aggregates for the individual grand.
Add the 8 individual grands for the Team Total UOA.

Here are top three grands.

Rod Davies, AUS
...Individual.....530
...Day Two......250
... GRAND.......780

Paul Sandie, GB
...Individual.....523
...Day Two......253
...GRAND........776

Barry Price, CAN
...Individual.....526
...Day Two......246
...GRAND........772

The Team UOA's are;

AUSTRALIA.....6098
USA..............6024
Canada..........5974
Great Britain...5900
South Africa....5803
Germany........5754

No apologies; this proves Australia had the best gear!

If you want to challenge the figures, talk to Jannie. Your lads must weep tears of green when you hear and read of what is available to the rest of the world. Your shooters beat GB, but your gear is at least 100 behind.

Rod Davies, with his inestimable contribution to technical advancement and his sublime shooting, move him to No. I on the list of "We couldn't have won without him"

None of you (maybe one or two) will ever have to overcome winning the Individual FCWC and then come out and record the 6th best score out of 48 in the Team competition. Few ,if any, could do this. No disrespect Kenny, but we understand, so far as we are able.

"HOW did Australia prevail?"

Still not answered.

Regards.
John Tracey.

bartman007
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#276 Postby bartman007 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:24 am

John, you have an interesting way of looking at the results. Yes, the gear was great, and more importantly for the coaches, consistent.

All shooters brought top gear to the line, and it was group sizes that determined whom and what gear eventually got used in the team.

It was a great demonstration of the accuracy of Bartlien barrels, along with the smooth repeatability of the Nightforce Competition scopes, and of course the consistency of Berger Bullets! This is a winning combination.

Besides the gear, we in the team know what made the winning combination. The human factor has so much to play in success, and if not motivated appropriately will not rise to its full potential. Well done to our Vice Captain Marty : =D>
###

AlanF
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#277 Postby AlanF » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:35 am

bartman007 wrote:...Besides the gear, we in the team know what made the winning combination. The human factor has so much to play in success, and if not motivated appropriately will not rise to its full potential. Well done to our Vice Captain Marty : =D>

So you were highly Martivated? :D

Actually I use a different indicator from John T for equipment accuracy, and that is the X count. A higher X count in windy conditions suggests that when you get the wind right, you also have good elevation i.e. accurate equipment.

In F-Open the team X counts were Australia lagging on 342, behind Canada 346 and US 350, but of course Australia won on points. And in F/TR Australia was well behind US, UK and SA on X count, but still managed a close second on points. I would suggest that Australia did not have the most accurate equipment, but had the best wind coaches (and motivation :D ).

Ref:
FCWCTeamScoresD.pdf
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bartman007
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#278 Postby bartman007 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:08 am

So you were highly Martivated?


Alan, he is one of the secrets to our success.

I too agree with the simple marker of high X count indicating rifle accuracy. Our shooters put a lot of time and effort into tuning whilst in Canada.

So while it is easy to say shooters are simply trigger pullers, they have a big role in presenting accurate gear that suits the local conditions!

For those shooters looking to South Africa, keep in mind just because your rifle is accurate at your local range in Aus, you will be spending hours developing loads whilst in SA. Different components along with atmospheric conditions all come into play.
###

Tim N
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#279 Postby Tim N » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:20 am

Hi All,
Does anyone have the photo taken of us in the range uniform and rifles?
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

DaveMc
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#280 Postby DaveMc » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:58 pm

John T wrote:Hello family.


"HOW did Australia prevail?"

Still not answered.

Regards.
John Tracey.


John,
Not taking away from your marvelous creations here but the answer is very simple.

Teamwork.

The bar was set high in 2013 and everyone got behind each other and supported the system, coaches, captaincy (in the end at least :D )

This time around they smashed teamwork out of the park. No other team I know of has ever worked this well together.

" we couldn't have won without him" - List the whole team and all helpers please.


Were the American/Canadian rifles and gear as accurate - yes
Were the coaches as talented or experienced - yes

What won - teamwork and GRIT - when the going got hard they believed in each other, got to work and got the job done.....(not just in Canada but all the way through the trials and leadup).
I am extremely proud of everyone involved in this and how they supported one another

THIS ("teamwork") IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR AND WITH IT, CAPTAINCY, MANAGEMENT, COACHING AND ACCURACY WILL COME.

it is often stated that "the best scores in teams matches don't win, it is how you pull up the lowest".
Well both of these are rubbish - it is how you all help each other improve by a point or two (there is no best and worst in a team) and how you can help the coaches forget about everything else and work together to concentrate on the wind.

AlanF
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#281 Postby AlanF » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:01 pm

DaveMc wrote:THIS ("teamwork") IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR

Agreed Dave. Credit must go to everyone, that is the essence of team shooting.

John T
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#282 Postby John T » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:24 am

Hello F Open.

There is belief that the Farquharson Trophy Match is close to becoming an internationally recognized world-class shooting event. (It would interesting to hear the views of long-standing competitors in both the Palma and the Farquharson, such as Martin Townsend.)

The Palma Match is the only recognized long range championship of world renown. We need to have some comprehension of the Palma tradition to see where our discipline stands in the world of international shooting competition.

"In 1875 the NRA (USA), as part of the Centennial celebration of the founding of the nation, issued a challenge to the riflemen of the world for a long-range rifle match to be fired at 800, 900 and 1000 yards at the Creedmoor range on Long Island in 1876. Australia, Ireland, Scotland and Canada accepted." England may have found 1876 date-sensitive. They did show up in 1877; just the two of them, USA and Great Britain, head to head. No casualty lists were ever published. There was another challenge in 1878. No one answered.

To commemorate the event. a trophy was donated. Made by Tiffanys at a cost of USD1500, including 280 ounces of silver, and standing 7'6", it bore the word "PALMA" and quickly became know as the "Palma Trophy", hence the "Palma Match". The Trophy has a bizarre history. It hasn't been seen at a Match since 1928. Whereabouts unknown. (Suspects include all generals, field officers, officers and other ranks, especially sergeants, who retired from the US Quartermaster-General's Office in about 1965.) A two-thirds replica was made in 1988.

Between 1876 and 1914, there were 7 Matches, all in the USA or Canada. The list of competing nations in 1913 at Camp Perry is interesting:- USA, Argentine, Canada, Sweden and Peru. The only match between the Wars was in 1928, at Camp Perry; just the 2 competitors, USA and Cuba. Historic irony?

It was not until 1971 that the next contest of any note took place at (you've guessed it) Camp Perry:- USA, Great Britain, Canada and Australia. 1976, Camp Perry, saw the beginning of what could be called the primary group of nations which compete for the Palma; Australia, Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand and USA. From 1995, the primary group was increased to 6 with the addition of South Africa.

Since 1985, Great Britain has dominated the Palma Match. The Records declare; "As the Match has been fired on a variety of different target sizes, team record scores have little significance, however the following highest and next best scores may be of interest." Perhaps this is an attempt to give balance to Great Britain's unnatural 30 year dominance.

1985 Bisley, HPS 3600. USA 3403. GB 3377. % of HPS 94.166
1988 Sydney, HPS 3600. AUS 3374. GB 3353. % of HPS 93.43
1992 Raton, HPS 7200. GB 7082. CAN 7023. % of HPS 97.951
1995 Trentham, HPS 14400. GB 13849. USA 13750. % of HPS 95.83
1999 Bloemfontein, HPS 14400. SA 14081. GB 14073. % of HPS 97.757
2003 Bisley, HPS 14400. GB 14121. USA 14056. % of HPS 97.836
2007 Ottawa, HPS 14400. GB 14200. SA 14175. % of HPS 98.524
2011 Brisbane, HPS 7200. GB 7027. SA 6992. % of HPS 97.354
2015 Camp Perry, HPS 7200. GB 7106. USA 7034. % of HPS 98.194

30 years; 9 Matches; Great Britain, 6 Gold and 3 Silver.

1876 was a 2-day match; Team of 8; course of fire was (and remains) 2+15 at 800, 900 and 1000 yards (metric equivalent); 5-point Bull; HPS 3600. It took 135 years to get back. If you were to meander through the Records until 1995 you would find the same amount of reason as in "Scarborough Fair" (think 1960's, 70's, 80's, flair and confusion). The variables, seemingly at the whim of the Host, were, Team numbers, one or two days of competition, and target dimensions.

1995 was a 2-day Match; Team of 16; standard course of fire; 10-point US decimal target; HPS 14400. Targets of 4 shooters + coach, Main coach; sound familiar?

The Big Change; the introduction of the ICFRA TR target dimensions for the Match at Brisbane in 2011; back to a 5-point Bull; HPS 7200.

The ICFRA F Class targets have been used at the FCWC since 2009. We know that the primary scoring rings, V, 5 and 4, are half the size of the TR target.

It seems then, that some comparison between the Palma Matches of 2011 and 2015 and the Farquharson Matches of 2009, 2013 and 2017 can be made.

Later.

John Tracey.
19-09-2017

John T
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#283 Postby John T » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:01 pm

Hello F O.

It's been over a month. "That long?"; "seems longer"; "I'm watching the finals." (How soon we forget.)

And I was. Watching the Finals.

Two weeks from now, very few people will think or care that the Cowboys (No.8) defeated the Storm (No.1) in the Grand Final. It will have been a first, because it has yet to happen. Cowboys; won't make the Final 8; can't beat the Sharks; can't beat the Ells; can't beat the Roosters; can't beat the Storm; but WILL. How soon we will forget?

Is it a coincidence that the F Open CORE GROUP are North Queensland shooting originals?

Everyone north of Rockhampton will say "No". Ask Bob Katter.

It is no big secret, the CORE, alphabetically:-
ROD DAVIES (expat.)
MARTY LOBERT
DAVE McNAMARA
PETER SMITH

I could be joined by another five in reminiscing about their efforts of four years ago, but that would draw a frown. There are at least fourteen who could tell it how it was this year, but that would risk a visit from Master-at-Arms Marty.

Team 2017 needed to be better than 2013. The Core knew that. It worked tirelessly and achieved that objective.

This is not a bunch of enthusiasts (or worse, glory seekers) pounding their way up a valley. They knew the mountain and plotted how to "knock the bastard off." (Ed Hillary. 1953)

This Team was developed, prepared and presented as well as any Melbourne Cup winner, from Day 1 of the FCNC.

In the main event, the Team trailed at the half way, but soon claimed the leader and was also too good for the fast finisher from the pack. Look at the placings and forget the margins. The payout is the same.

This Core has made and carried two Teams to Gold at the F Open World Championship. I could rabbit on (with the little knowledge I have) about the amount of energy they have expended over the last seven years. I can tell you that it has set back Australian consumption targets.

But their energy is not easily renewed.

It would be ignorant and insulting to assume the a tap on the shoulder and a "well done mate" will ensure a McNamara Captaincy for 2021.

The Core Group has much to consider, including its own regeneration.

A Core can be lost. It happened to Great Britain.

John Tracey
23.9.17

AlanF
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#284 Postby AlanF » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:06 pm

A new report on Shooting Sports USA by Larry Bartholome : http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201801/index.php#/46

John T
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Re: F-Class World Championships 2017

#285 Postby John T » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:32 pm

Dear Larry,

not for a moment, can we believe that this article reflects your views on the 2017 FCWC. It is dishonourable that a man of your stature be left to clean up the mess.

The article reads more like a Mid Tompkins dump.

Even Derek Rodgers looks embarrassed by this white-wash.

As for the photo of the "Australian shooter" - if that was intended as humour, pelican poo on a pump handle would get more laughs.

Shame US Open, shame!

John Tracey.
19.1.18


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