Squadding

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AlanF
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Squadding

#1 Postby AlanF » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:19 pm

Would be good to get some discussion going on squadding, or more particularly, selective squadding based on class/grade. I'll get it started by giving you something to comment on.

The main aim is to have all shooters in each grade/class getting similar weather conditions by having them shoot at the same time, thereby reducing one of the main luck factors. The main cost of doing this is the extra time involved - the fairer you make it, the greater the time required to achieve it. The extreme example of selective squadding is US style squadded relays, where there is a pause between every shooter, and all shooters at equivalent positions in the order have an identical time slot to shoot in. At the FCWC 2013 in Raton, 3 shoots per day of at least 15 shots were achieved using this system, but it was a long day. So are we prepared to go to that extreme? Or is there a way of doing it which doesn't cost too much time, but usually makes things fairer?

The main way of saving time is to have less (or no) pauses. The problem with this is that after several shooters, things can get out of step between boards, and you will occasionally get situations where shooters who are meant to be shooting at the same time could be starting 10 or 15 minutes apart. A single pause around the middle of the board would improve the situation markedly, and if done well, would not cost much time.

Regarding how fair the system is, the question needs to be asked, should the leading shooters in each grade/class be squadded together, or should the emphasis be more on having everyone in that grade/class shooting more or less at the same time, but in random order? Squadding the leaders together means the best shooter is more likely to win, but it may be disliked as elitist by the battlers. However it doesn't necessarily advantage those in the first relay - depending on the day, conditions may improve or deteriorate. Another thing to be considered is which grade/classes should go first. Even if you have one or two pauses, only those relays either first or following a pause will be guaranteed to be shooting concurrently with their peers, so should the most competitive (largest) grade/classes be slotted into those? I think that has merit, but there are factors which make that less attractive. Done that way, scoring and check scoring duties for the first and second shooters would fall unfairly on a few shooters for the whole event. Also, being in the first relay down on a calm morning at a long range should be something that everyone can occasionally enjoy, not just A Grade, F-Open etc.

If you couldn't be bothered reading that (I'm not a fan of big posts either :D ), then below is a table which puts into practice what is recommended above. Note that unless you have pre-registration, then the first day of a Queens would be difficult to squad in this way, because latecomers would need to "flummed in" as they arrived. I would like to see squadding start on day 2, based on the positions after day 1, then done again for day 3 based on the positions after day 2. Note also that the order on the board would be changed over the course of the day, so for 4 ranges as shown, names would move up by 2. And boards would be moved across by a few targets such that a full rotation is achieved over the day.

I should add that the order of shooting at the first range would be a random drawer - as you can see TR B Grade drew first here. It could just as easily have been any of the other rows.

Comments welcome. This needs to be thrashed out.

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Matt P
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Re: Squadding

#2 Postby Matt P » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:41 pm

Alan
Sorry but if that was the system used, I'd find another shooting sport to compete in.
That is elitism at it's worst and not what F Class in this country has been about, just because the US use it doesn't mean we have to, I'd prefer the "current luck of the draw".
I don't mind squadding in groups that don't change at any stage during the match, other than moving up the board or a grade / class changing position such as what I believe was used at the NQRA and SARA Queens.
Regards
Matt P

AlanF
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Re: Squadding

#3 Postby AlanF » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:22 pm

Matt,

I understand your views about elitism, and you're not alone. WARA tried something at their Queens for a couple of years that was seen as elitist - if you didn't make the cut then you didn't shoot the 1000. They might have given that idea away.

Don't you think that squadding on previous day's position might actually suit the ones not in the first relay. I know if I have a bad run early in a Queens, it'd suit me fine to be shooting at a different time to the leaders, in the hope they might get the worst conditions :D .

See you at Belmont. Might call in at Hornsby on the way to familiarise with the Hextas.

Alan

Razer
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Re: Squadding

#4 Postby Razer » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:02 am

As the lane draw can also have a drastic affect on scores, such as the left versus the right lanes at Bendigo, shooting at the same time would seriously disadvantage the left side compared to the right as it is reasonably sheltered by wind coming from the right.
How do you equalise the lanes? Give the leaders the two most similar lanes, IE: the centre of the range? That also will not go down too well.
What might work on very open ranges like SA will not work at Bendigo, etc.
Too many factors to consider with such a range variation as we have.
Also smacks on elitism. Every shooter has the right to be treated as equal regardless of grading.
Pay the same entry fee so should get equal opportunity.
The old system of 2 down and 2 across always seemed to bring an average of fair conditions for all shooters.
If shooting World Championships, then it would be easier to squad as it would be more controllable(?).
As for our shoots with mixed classes and grades, nah.

scott/r
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Re: Squadding

#5 Postby scott/r » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:08 am

I didn't mind the squadding at the national queen's except for one thing. Instead of the whole board moving up one, why not just move up one in your disaplin. So, f class disaplin would rotate in their own part of the board and so would t/r. Even if we had f class shoot first on the first day and t/r shoot first on the second day. There would be a break in between the two so that we could get back in time. I think that we still need to move across targets as well, weather it be 1 or 2 would depend on how many targets are up. Just as long as you get to shoot across the whole range.
The hardest part about setting up squadding (or not) is that not everyone is going to be happy with it no matter which way you go. Trying to find a happy medium is going to be the fun bit.

DenisA
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Re: Squadding

#6 Postby DenisA » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:26 am

I'm not a well travelled shooter, so my idea is most likely not properly thought through.

The NRAA Queens squadding system was terrible. Each range dragged out for too long and grades were split at stages where one F-open shooter was first and the other on the same target was last............. so there was ZERO point having that system in place.

Why not something like: (at Belmont)
Allocate the 1st 10 targets to TR, the 2nd 10 to F STD and the 3rd 10 to F-Open followed by FTR or visa versa.
The order of each discipline could be based on national ranking. That's not elitism, that's fact based on statistics.
Rather than moving 1 target across between ranges, the whole group of 10 move across to the next 10. For the sake of rankings, don't rotate shooters up or down the board. You could reverse order a board if you had to.
The scoped classes would roll through much faster in general making the positioning fairer and removing time delay frustrations.

Then scopes could go to a 10 ring target too :D
Last edited by DenisA on Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

jasmay
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Re: Squadding

#7 Postby jasmay » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:26 am

I agree with Scotts comments, squashing at the nationals was almost there, were they went wrong was not rolling 1 up within the disciplines. With this method the classes shoot closer together but there is still a small element of luck so really, aren't we pleasing all with this method?

As for lane differences, moving 2 or 3 across see's everyone at some stage get the bad lanes, but condition may have changed, so again, better than pure chance, but still closer results than totally random.

I like squadding, but had tk be done right, world champs will use squadding, so IMO it's just another feather in our hat to get used to it.

Also agree that squadding the higher performing shooters is a bit elitist, get rid of that idea and what we had in the Nats was almost there.

It will take time to get it right, but it's better we try.

Matt, as much as you would walk away if we do it, if we don't is avoid large comps, as I have been doing for the last 18months.... We need something that suits all.

Pommy Chris
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Re: Squadding

#8 Postby Pommy Chris » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:51 am

Squadding done well is great, everyone loved it at the NQRA Queens. I agree with what other here have said you must not just go one up you need to move by what you are shooting ie ftr, open etc move down together. I dont think we need gaps as if I shoot 10 mins different from others in FTR I dont think it is going to make a jot of difference. However shooting over an hour from the rest of those I am competing against can make a massive difference ie the range can go from dead calm to big winds. Yes it is true parts of the range are easier than others, but we all get a go over the 3 days at the sheltered parts so this is not an argument. Squadding works and it is the only fair way to compete IMO. The luck of the draw method is not fair, I shot an NQRA Queens a year or so ago when first down where lucky to get a 50 as the wind was so strong you could hardly stand up, 40 mins later it was dead calm. Anyone who was first down their Queens was over, if it had been squadded though that would not be the case.
Chris

Matt P
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Re: Squadding

#9 Postby Matt P » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:11 am

Hi All
I don't care what happens at the World Championships, I don't plan on attending and neither do 99.9% of the NRAA. We changed to ICFRA targets a while back and one of the reasons was so our International TR teams could train on what they were going to shot on and be more competitive, well that didn't really pan out, the Pom's still beat us and domestically they use a different target.
I shot at the first FCWC in Canada and there was no squading there and doubt there will be this time in fact the individuals could well be shot Bisley pairs as it was in 2002 (and in SA and the UK, I think). As far as I know it's up to the Country holding the event.
F Class numbers are good as they have ever been and it's not because of squadding, the current system allows someone from the "midpack" to punch above their weight if they luck upon a few good patches and make the most of it.
Anyway the decision wont be made here.
Regards
Matt P

Alan
Always welcome as Hornsby, how's the new barrels going ??

AlanF
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Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Squadding

#10 Postby AlanF » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:58 am

Matt P wrote:Alan
Always welcome as Hornsby, how's the new barrels going ??

Neither barrel has dropped a point. Probably because they haven't fired a shot :cry: . Will be running them in next week, then some intensive testing prior to Brisbane.

Steve N
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Location: Gippsland Victoria.

Re: Squadding

#11 Postby Steve N » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:38 pm

Wasn't at SARA Queens but heard the squadding there worked well.
NQRA Queens did it well but could possibly have been improved with a short break halfway through a relay to synchronize disciplines.
NRAA Queens didn't work well because shooters moved up one position at each range breaking up grades to the length of the board. The better ones move up the board by discipline or grade. Pretty hard to convince anyone based on that.
Last year's QRA was a part of the leaning curve and shouldn't need to be repeated.
Hard to get a perfect system but as Pommy Chris said shooting ten minutes apart from shooters in you own grade is much better than shooting an hour or more apart.

It shouldn't be too hard for organisers to talk to SARA and NQRA and get their recommendations.

Better to have no squadding at all than those that don't work and just take longer to get through.

Steve.

AlanF
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Re: Squadding

#12 Postby AlanF » Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:41 pm

Okay, it seems the most favoured squadding method does not group anyone by position in the field or by any form of ranking, so the following tables assume that the initial order of shooters within each class/grade is random. And at every range, shooters within each class/grade would rotate e.g. by moving up 1 place. Also the overall order of class/grades would rotate, with the cycle completed after 7 ranges as shown.

Again, without preregistration it would be best if squadding started on day 2. It may be feasible to start it after lunch on day 1 but I'd envisage that it would require printing and distribution of squadding lists for every target at every range because of the complicated nature of the rotations.

More comments welcome. It sounds like the organisers at several Queens are keen to do squadding, so let's try to reach a consensus of the best (or least worst? :D ) way of doing it. Then anyone who gets the opportunity of influencing how its done will hopefully let our views be known.

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Matt P
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Re: Squadding

#13 Postby Matt P » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:01 am

If you can't be bothered to pre register, you end where you end up.
Matt P

EWM
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Location: Brisbane

Re: Squadding

#14 Postby EWM » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:14 am

Hi
In the Queens Program under squading it said no squading Duncan Queens last day

EWM

ecomeat
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Re: Squadding

#15 Postby ecomeat » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:52 am

It actually says that there will be no RE-squadding on the last day of the Duncan and Queens, but in the context that its in, I have no idea what that actually means :shock:

Squadding: Competitors’ target allocation and shooting position will be available when cards are
collected. There will be no re-squadding on the last day of Duncan and Queens
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.


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