king of 2 miles

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bruce moulds
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king of 2 miles

#1 Postby bruce moulds » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:36 pm

yet again amidst great fanfare and little substance, we see the best at 2 miles fail to better scores shot by sir henry halford and William metford
at similar distances in the 1870/1880 period.
416 barrat vs 50 cal muzzle loader.
there is a lot of air and light in between the shooter and a target 2 miles away.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

GSells
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Re: king of 2 miles

#2 Postby GSells » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:49 pm

bruce moulds wrote:yet again amidst great fanfare and little substance, we see the best at 2 miles fail to better scores shot by sir henry halford and William metford
at similar distances in the 1870/1880 period.
416 barrat vs 50 cal muzzle loader.
there is a lot of air and light in between the shooter and a target 2 miles away.
bruce.

Shooting just a mile was hard enough, especially during the day with western mirage !

lonerider43
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Re: king of 2 miles

#3 Postby lonerider43 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:24 pm

bruce moulds wrote:yet again amidst great fanfare and little substance, we see the best at 2 miles fail to better scores shot by sir henry halford and William metford
at similar distances in the 1870/1880 period.
416 barrat vs 50 cal muzzle loader.
there is a lot of air and light in between the shooter and a target 2 miles away.
bruce.

how about you have a crack bruce and tell us how outstanding you did.... :lol:
Australian's Against "Gun-A-Phobia"

bruce moulds
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Re: king of 2 miles

#4 Postby bruce moulds » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:29 am

lonerider ,
I have just spent 5 yrs learning the ins and outs of long range blackpowder rifles, and have just reached the bottom of the mountain.
I now have an understanding of their limitations and abilities.
to see that the best modern technology cannot better metford and halford in the 1800s tells me to do what metford and halford did.
i.e. forget shooting at that distance as a real thing., just a dream.
they were dreamers, but did not give up easily.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

AlanF
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Re: king of 2 miles

#5 Postby AlanF » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:12 am

Bruce,

I'd be interested to know what evidence you're basing this comparison on. When you say Metford and Halford shot scores at similar distances, was it as far as 2 miles, and what target sizes and scoring methods applied?

bruce moulds
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Re: king of 2 miles

#6 Postby bruce moulds » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:55 pm

hi alan,
i'll have to remember where I read it and look it up.
I think it was one of halfords writings.
from memory, john rigby turned up and refused to shoot.
the brits were keen on understanding the use of plunging fire in warfare, and put up quite a big prize for some level of performance.
the turks used plunging fire effectively against the Russians at the battle of plevna, but the brits forgot about it after finding its effectiveness limited during the boer war.
plevna was particularly interesting, as each Turkish soldier was armed with both a Peabody long range rifle and a Winchester repeater.
the few poor Russians that reached the Turkish lines were slaughtered by rapid fire repeaters at close range.
the point I try to make re ko2m is this.
the black powder bullet with a b.c 0f just over 0.5 takes 3 seconds to get to 1000 yds, and longer to 1200, going 50 feet high.
there can be serious wind changes in this time, causing both horizontal and vertical issues.
it is not too hard to keep shots on the black of the icfra target and better can be done if you get it right.
e.s. with blackpowder ammo can fairly easily be kept down to 4 for 10 shots, so this is not a verticle causer.
out past there I have no personal experience, but just know how hard it will be.
I suspect it goes into the area where a guided projectile is the only way to have reliable hits at 2 miles, whatever the propellent or launching system.
it might be a big getoff trying with current technology, and a good marketing vehicle for certain businesses, but we live in the real world.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

AlanF
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Re: king of 2 miles

#7 Postby AlanF » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:20 pm

I found something about Metford and Halford winning a LR competition at Wimbledon in 1865 but it was at 2000yds, not 2 miles (3520yds). From what I've seen of 1000yd plus shooting, there will be a quantum leap in difficulty between 2000 and 3520yds. Without being critical of the pioneers, surely all the advances in technology since the 1800s count for something?

bruce moulds
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Re: king of 2 miles

#8 Postby bruce moulds » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:40 pm

alan,
alloy bullets can be cast and swaged to the weight and measurement consistency of modern bullets.
they can be started at better e.s. than modern ammo.
we can now use barrels of equal quality in black or smokeless guns, and smith both types equally as well.
with black we clean between shots, so barrels are in very consistent condition unless you get leading with the alloy bullet.
theoretically the bpcr should shoot as well as the smokeless gun, and certainly does better with the same bullets in the same gun.
black has one more tuning method available in varying powder compression.
b.c. of long range blackpowder guns is 0.5 or a bit more, so not far behind current 308 match bullets.
the metford bullet and the American long range bullet are very stable when subsonic, and need to be as they start their journey at the top end of this.
yet as you say, smokeless guns appear more accurate.
to shoot black powder with any degree of success is plain hard work.
they recoil, their stock design is less easy to shoot in comfort, and bullets start much slower.
here is an example of something you would not even have to consider with a 308.
at 800 yds in a 20 mph wind from 1.00 o'clock, an extra elevation of 3.5 moa is required above average.
same wind but changed to 2.00 o'clock, only requires extra elevation of 2 moa.
a difference of 1.5 moa elevation for that change of direction.
20 mph wind from 1.00 needs 10 moa windage, .
wind drops to 10 moa and windage requirement becomes 5 moa.
wind remains at 20, but shifts to2.00 o'clock and suddenly you need 17 moa on the wind arm.
above figures for 800 yds.
keeping up with all of this is downright exhausting.
then the old sights were pure vernier with no clicks
I have seen verticle in old plotsheets at the creedmoor range of between 1/2 and 1 moa, but not many, and i have never been close to that.
I believe it can be done without a computer, but not by many.
I have yet to come to grips with the barometer, but recall sir henry halford writing of the barometer dropping drastically at creedmoor, and how many points were required to correct for it.
elevation settings required at 1000 yds on the creedmoor range throughout the year in all conditions varied as much as 20 moa.
for me this has become too massive an undertaking to pursue as required, compared to shooting a modern rifle.
I can shoot the modern rifle better and easier.
I think this is the major advance.
I just think that shooting a modern rifle at 2 miles will never guarantee good hits, possibly as good as a bpcr at 1500 yds with a good shooter and all done properly.
at 1500 yds a competition between black powder rifles would decide the best shooter.
2 miles with a 416 barret will decide the luckiest guy on that range on that day.
which might not leave the black powder rifle far behind at 2 miles if the guy shooting it had good sight settings etc.
the implications fed us by the marketing machine regarding great success just do not exist.
regarding quantum leaps, there is even a big one from 900 to 1000 yds!
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

macguru
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Re: king of 2 miles

#9 Postby macguru » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:23 pm

I had a 9 twist 300wsm made firing 230 gr bergers and did not see a significant advantage over the 7mm saum... To shoot 2 miles you may need a 50 browning with 750gr projectiles or perhaps a 20mm aircraft cannon... loaded with non explosive tipped projectiles. All good fun !
id quod est

GSells
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Re: king of 2 miles

#10 Postby GSells » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:25 pm

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11E8B398-49DA-4150-A4ED-C5024A218C49.jpeg


Optics is really the limiting factor to pulling off a long shot . Mirage was such a problem when we shot a Mile . If it wasn’t for the drone we would not have been able to spot the shots and make corrections.
Had to shoot on 20 power from memory! Imagine shooting 3.2 km !! :shock: I would say my edge is pretty well maxed out at 1.7 km ! Beyond that , what’s the point ? My drum at 1.6 km is maxed out and I’m holding over at the bottom of the reticle ! There is a u tube vid somewhere if they want to see it , under plumbs7 or yours truly! I think it was a lot of luck ! This was the 3 rd attempt! In 3 years! The 300 grs Berger hybrids are nearly transonic at a mile 2760 FPS muzzle.

Good on anyone that can shoot 2 km or more with an edge or lap mag !
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bruce moulds
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Re: king of 2 miles

#11 Postby bruce moulds » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:27 pm

graham,
well designed bullets should go through the transonic zone with accuracy.
the problem is to test for that.
think dynamic stability.
we all now know that the 168 gn sierra 30 cal matchking is definitely NOT such a bullet.
and you are right, seeing thing at that distance is hard, and where you see it might not be where it is.
and there can be a condition change during time of flight.
and many other things.
shooting an unguided non propelled projectile at such distances is as I said before a measure of your luck on that day at best.
some forms of artillery fire projectiles that send back a weather report ready for the next shot with a real shell, which helps.
at the battle of ke sanh (spelling) in Vietnam, the viets were shelling the American base from 20+ miles away and managed to destroy the airstrip and blow up the ammo dump.
not sure how many moa that translates into, and they had forward spotters to call the shots, like your drone.
I have watched a video of a rifled blackpowder artillery piece called a parrot rifle outshoot the latest u.s. artillery with computer guided aiming at 1000 yds, hitting a newspaper more times.
maybe the modern piece did not need to be as accurate, as it shell would be potentially more highly explosive.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: king of 2 miles

#12 Postby pjifl » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:33 am

Eventually the last manifestations of large Naval Guns which was say part of a 3 turret mount would fire one barrel first. Calculations for air density, humidity, barrel wear, Range etc were of course applied as well as possible by a computer.

It would be tracked with mm Radar and the deviation error from intended track applied automatically as a correction to the other two barrels. This 'smoothed out' atmospheric uncertainties along the ballistic path.

Since it took a lot of seconds for flight, the last two shells would be on their way around the time the first one landed.

Add in a spotter as well.

Not guided as such but certainly helped along in accuracy.
We have now moved on of course to guided projectiles of various sorts.

Dream on .........

In some historic large calibre naval exchanges, a person in the top Director looking through the Optical Rangefinder could actually see the shells in flight coming and going in their ballistic arcs and 'crossing'. Oh Shit ..........


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