PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

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Matt P
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#46 Postby Matt P » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:14 am

Do I want to shoot F Class next to a Terminator braked 300WSM ?? NO of coarse not, do I want to be able to shoot my braked 6.5 x 47 Tac gun ?? Hell yeah !!!!
At my local range we are allowed to shoot braked rifles at the end of the day and obviously those using them need to be considerate of those around them, a simple solution would be keep the braked guys together at one end of the range and have a plywood or similar baffle between them and their neighbor on the left or right. Let's face it on a normal Saturday afternoon at most ranges there's usally at least 1 or 2 target not being used, why not give it a go ???
Matt P

Send-it
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:25 am
Location: Adelaide (CTV)

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#47 Postby Send-it » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:16 pm

Matt P wrote:........... a simple solution would be keep the braked guys together at one end of the range and have a plywood or similar baffle between them and their neighbor on the left or right. Let's face it on a normal Saturday afternoon at most ranges there's usally at least 1 or 2 target not being used, why not give it a go ???
Matt P



exactly. =D>
nailed it in one.
let them pay their nom fees to their prospective clubs, and let them shoot.
not only are these people going to spend money in nom fees but also likely to put money through club canteens etc.

jasmay
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#48 Postby jasmay » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:20 pm

KHGS wrote:
jasmay wrote:Oh, and another amongst the "death by 1000 cuts" onslaught, shooting will not be at the 2022 Com Games, and, its being held in probably the strongest TR/Shotgun country in the world, that's evolution though right :(

You seem to have missed my opening statement, I am not against PRS, in fact I support it & have built several rifles for that form of shooting. Regarding muzzle brakes, I have probably fitted more of these than most of the readers of this forum have seen. Muzzle brakes are not all "equal" in how much disturbance they create. There is much to consider here, the design of the brake & the caliber used with the brake, so it is not a simple issue! Hence my rather "educated" caution to the use of brakes where anyone considers allowing braked rifles to be used on all ranges & mixed with other disciplines! My personal view is that those wanting to shoot their PRS rifle in F-Class mode should remove the brake to do so. My 2 cents if anyone is interested.
Keith H.


Your support certainly doesn't come across very strong Keith, given your wealth of Knowledge surely you could up with a set of parameters for them to be used, perhaps something similar to what Matt has suggested.

The use of NRAA & state affiliated ranges compared to that of other shooting bodies is a waste, for example Belmont is shot on on average 3 days a week, probably for less than 12-16hrs, certainly less than 20 hours a week, many other ranges are in the same boat. Are we all really going to sit here and say sorry, we can't cater for you in anyway, or seemingly come across that we don't want to try and cater for them. The NRAA and its affiliates come across as elitists, get out amongst some other non- NRAA clubs and listen to how we are talked about, the consensus isn't great and needs to change urgently.

As has been said, most ranges have spare targets, put them down an end, put baffles up, you could put a floor plate or mat down to stop the blast impacting on the mounds for that matter. If ET.s are a concern I am sure manual targets would work.

"Shooting a PRS rifle in F-Class mode", really? is that the best you can come up with? if you have built heaps of PRS rifles you would know, apart from the fact it goes BANG and something comes out the end there are no other similarities, that even goes for optics used. There is no "f-class mode" for a PRS rifle I'm sorry Keith, but with attitudes like that it is no wonder we are failing.

I'll say again, with less than 7000 members in our fold and dwindling yearly we need to stop missing opportunities to grow and expand our membership base, there are people leaving us to join them, perhaps it is too late already....

Pete
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:01 pm
Location: Penrith

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#49 Postby Pete » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:52 pm

KHGS wrote:
jasmay wrote:Oh, and another amongst the "death by 1000 cuts" onslaught, shooting will not be at the 2022 Com Games, and, its being held in probably the strongest TR/Shotgun country in the world, that's evolution though right :(

You seem to have missed my opening statement, I am not against PRS, in fact I support it & have built several rifles for that form of shooting. Regarding muzzle brakes, I have probably fitted more of these than most of the readers of this forum have seen. Muzzle brakes are not all "equal" in how much disturbance they create. There is much to consider here, the design of the brake & the caliber used with the brake, so it is not a simple issue! Hence my rather "educated" caution to the use of brakes where anyone considers allowing braked rifles to be used on all ranges & mixed with other disciplines! My personal view is that those wanting to shoot their PRS rifle in F-Class mode should remove the brake to do so. My 2 cents if anyone is interested.
Keith H.


Keith you constantly remind this forum of your experience and expertise, yet when asked how PRS could co-exist, your answer is "remove the brake", may I suggest that you could possibly be also "missing the point". Now everyone is of course entitled to a "personal view" I guess personally, I was hoping for a little flexibility and somewhat more thought......
Brakes are part of PRS (yes I understand NOT F class), just as peep sights, slings and jackets are to full bore. Sure just remove a 180g weight from the end of your barrel, then go shoot a few rounds, and screw it back on, no worries.

I wasn't around to see it, but it seems that certain attitudes are manifesting themselves similarly in F class, as occurred in full bore when F Class dared to lay prone on the mound. Would anyone still be of the opinion that F Class, NEVER should of been given a chance, or the fact that it has at LEAST partly save long range shooting AND been extremely succesful?

Many suggestions have been made (from VERY experience and successful F class competitors) that can accommodate braked rifles, to ensure that others shooting comforts are not effected to any noticeable degree. It is funny in human nature that many of us default to a type of thinking, that if something negative was done to us, then we have the right to perpetuate that negativity to others.
I truly hope that this thread can remain about how Long Range Shooting as a first class sport, can benefit and GROW from an open mind and the AUSTRALIAN can do attitude!!!

GSells
Posts: 798
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm
Location: Qld

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#50 Postby GSells » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:05 pm

Some really good discussions , Kieth we all respect u and also Jason too. Please keep it in a goodwill if at all possible! I know that is a bit rich coming even from me lol! #-o

jasmay
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#51 Postby jasmay » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:11 pm

GSells wrote:Some really good discussions , Kieth we all respect u and also Jason too. Please keep it in a goodwill if at all possible! I know that is a bit rich coming even from me lol! #-o


G, there is no malice here, just robust discussion, stop being a drama queen O:)

GSells
Posts: 798
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm
Location: Qld

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#52 Postby GSells » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:37 pm

jasmay wrote:
GSells wrote:Some really good discussions , Kieth we all respect u and also Jason too. Please keep it in a goodwill if at all possible! I know that is a bit rich coming even from me lol! #-o


G, there is no malice here, just robust discussion, stop being a drama queen O:)

Lol! :)

SunnyCoast 5r
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:23 pm

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#53 Postby SunnyCoast 5r » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:43 pm

This is only my 3rd year in FClass and I started with a varmint rifle. I have now had a dedicated FTR rifle built.
From my recent experience I think it might be easier for a shooter with a good factory rifle (and a muzzle brake) in an appropriate caliber to be competitive in PRS then it would be in FS or FTR. Seems that PRS could be a good comp to run to attract shooters to long range shooting. Then hope to hell they have the budget to build a FClass rig.
I will also say I am fortunate to be a member of a club that is going well numbers wise with lots of potential members around (Sunshine Coast is predicted to increasingly boom due to retirees - as Alan has said they are the demographic we seem to sign up). Any younger shooters do seem to end up in the myriad of other clubs on our doorstep (SSAA, shotgun and pistol clubs on the same site). North Arm is not really set up for PRS but there are other non-NRAA ranges within an hours drive....

I think we need to start seeing PRS as a feeder class for us or we might be gone down the track nationally.

See you in Dalby!

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#54 Postby KHGS » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:44 pm

Pete wrote:
KHGS wrote:
jasmay wrote:Oh, and another amongst the "death by 1000 cuts" onslaught, shooting will not be at the 2022 Com Games, and, its being held in probably the strongest TR/Shotgun country in the world, that's evolution though right :(

You seem to have missed my opening statement, I am not against PRS, in fact I support it & have built several rifles for that form of shooting. Regarding muzzle brakes, I have probably fitted more of these than most of the readers of this forum have seen. Muzzle brakes are not all "equal" in how much disturbance they create. There is much to consider here, the design of the brake & the caliber used with the brake, so it is not a simple issue! Hence my rather "educated" caution to the use of brakes where anyone considers allowing braked rifles to be used on all ranges & mixed with other disciplines! My personal view is that those wanting to shoot their PRS rifle in F-Class mode should remove the brake to do so. My 2 cents if anyone is interested.
Keith H.


Keith you constantly remind this forum of your experience and expertise, yet when asked how PRS could co-exist, your answer is "remove the brake", may I suggest that you could possibly be also "missing the point". Now everyone is of course entitled to a "personal view" I guess personally, I was hoping for a little flexibility and somewhat more thought......
Brakes are part of PRS (yes I understand NOT F class), just as peep sights, slings and jackets are to full bore. Sure just remove a 180g weight from the end of your barrel, then go shoot a few rounds, and screw it back on, no worries.

I wasn't around to see it, but it seems that certain attitudes are manifesting themselves similarly in F class, as occurred in full bore when F Class dared to lay prone on the mound. Would anyone still be of the opinion that F Class, NEVER should of been given a chance, or the fact that it has at LEAST partly save long range shooting AND been extremely succesful?

Many suggestions have been made (from VERY experience and successful F class competitors) that can accommodate braked rifles, to ensure that others shooting comforts are not effected to any noticeable degree. It is funny in human nature that many of us default to a type of thinking, that if something negative was done to us, then we have the right to perpetuate that negativity to others.
I truly hope that this thread can remain about how Long Range Shooting as a first class sport, can benefit and GROW from an open mind and the AUSTRALIAN can do attitude!!!


I actually find your post offensive. I have not suggested that I have superior experience in PRS matters, I did say that I have fitted more brakes than most reading this thread have actually seen & I stand by that statement. The other thing I have said is that I do not want to shoot alongside a braked rifle...............to carry that a little further, unless it is on the other side of a baffle, or at least one target away. I have NOT set myself up as an expert on PRS, but I do shoot F-Class Open & I assure you I do not want to have my shoot compromised by "having to evolve" to suit PRS, for mine & I say it again I should not have to evolve. As an aside, at no time in the past did F-Class require or ask Target Rifle to evolve to accept F-Class, F-Class was designed to co-exist with Target Rifle. It is obvious to me that PRS matches cannot be shot alongside Target Rifle & F-Class, due to the course of fire, correct??? So then I take it that this thread is about PRS shooters wanting to shoot F-Class with their PRS rifles alongside F-Class rifles, correct??? If so, no problem from me .....if you follow F-Class rules, simple!!!!! So there you have it Pete, the obvious solution.....take your brake off, you have flags & each shot is marked so you do not need to see the fall of shot any more than I do......yea, problem solved & no one will need to evolve, just follow the rules!!!!!
Keith H. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Pete
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:01 pm
Location: Penrith

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#55 Postby Pete » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:10 pm

I apologise if you found my post offensive Keith....
Clearly we are not going to agree, also best of luck to you and your NOT evolving stance. That attitude has worked so successfully throughout history, for countless subjects..... I'd clap my own post, but I find that just siily.
No offence
Pete

jasmay
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#56 Postby jasmay » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:24 pm

It's quite funny isn't it..

PRS people would like to shoot alongside (not with) F-Class shooters but using PRS style rifles with perhaps a slightly altered course of fire, but not typical PRS, just long range. This would bolster our dwindling membership and expand use of our ranges.

F-Class shooters response: Nup, just shoot F-Class rules and modify your rifles to do so or don't come.

PRS Shooter: Ok.... We'll just shoot elsewhere....

NRAA & State associations: Miss another boat.

Anyone keen for a round of sporting clays tomorrow?

Send-it
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:25 am
Location: Adelaide (CTV)

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#57 Postby Send-it » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:54 pm

jasmay wrote:......Anyone keen for a round of sporting clays tomorrow?


maybe i shouldn't.
as my skeet gun is muzzle ported. :wink:

i know we might be going in circles here but, i am passionate about both disciplines and am keen for something positive to happen.

thoughts on the following please (from anyone).
f-class/fullbore is done with two details, each being 10+2 shots,......at a single distance for the event (e.g 600yards for the day)
what if there was a tamed down/tailored version of PRS/practical rifle discipline allowing;
their first detail to be something like
1st detail prone, second detail positional of some sort or similar
that way they can fit in with the usual fullbore formats etc, allowing everyone to shoot/practice their events.

our club (CTV) has a hunting rifle category slightly tailored like this and it works well.
it allows people with 'non target' type rifles to compete side by side with f/fullbore shooters.

jasmay
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#58 Postby jasmay » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:11 pm

We are all passionate about it, that’s the thing!!

What people need to realize, and, if they don’t I’d suggest talking to some people in the know is just how small the numbers are in our sport and that they are getting smaller, that’s means there is know long term future.

Question is how do we fix that.

Last year, I believe out of all the states and territories only 1 experienced an increase in membership.

To me, there is one solution, and only one that will fix this issue, make the sport and ranges more accessible to people other than strict F-Class shooters.

GSells
Posts: 798
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm
Location: Qld

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#59 Postby GSells » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:48 pm

Send-it wrote:
jasmay wrote:......Anyone keen for a round of sporting clays tomorrow?


maybe i shouldn't.
as my skeet gun is muzzle ported. :wink:

i know we might be going in circles here but, i am passionate about both disciplines and am keen for something positive to happen.

thoughts on the following please (from anyone).
f-class/fullbore is done with two details, each being 10+2 shots,......at a single distance for the event (e.g 600yards for the day)
what if there was a tamed down/tailored version of PRS/practical rifle discipline allowing;
their first detail to be something like
1st detail prone, second detail positional of some sort or similar
that way they can fit in with the usual fullbore formats etc, allowing everyone to shoot/practice their events.

our club (CTV) has a hunting rifle category slightly tailored like this and it works well.
it allows people with 'non target' type rifles to compete side by side with f/fullbore shooters.

How Vic police opm ran there shoot with half of the shooter Prs , was just excellent and a template to move forward! If the rifle was factory fitted brake it was allowed as per 16.1.3 . They shot on a five ring 2moa bull same as Tr . They shot 10 and 2 as we did .prs shooters at one end and f class at the other . Everyone was happy !

Why can’t that happen here . Even at Belmont that could happen possibly on the non shooting days that Tr and f class weren’t shooting .

Dalby is one of the few ranges around that I know that can shoot steel , which makes it ideal for prs !
I’m quite excited where this going to takes us ! But I have to fall in line with the clubs wishes , as it is the correct thing to do and say . On the full bore side please no Brakes on rifles .

But we love to have u there , especially me !

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: PRS IS COMING , WE HAVE TO EVOLVE !

#60 Postby KHGS » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:29 am

jasmay wrote:It's quite funny isn't it..

PRS people would like to shoot alongside (not with) F-Class shooters but using PRS style rifles with perhaps a slightly altered course of fire, but not typical PRS, just long range. This would bolster our dwindling membership and expand use of our ranges.

F-Class shooters response: Nup, just shoot F-Class rules and modify your rifles to do so or don't come.

PRS Shooter: Ok.... We'll just shoot elsewhere....

NRAA & State associations: Miss another boat.

Anyone keen for a round of sporting clays tomorrow?


Jason & Pete, with all due respect to you and all PRS shooters, once again please understand I am NOT AGAINST PRS shooters using their rifles in F-Class matches along side of or with, but please observe the rules of the match which you are shooting, that is all I am saying. Oh yes Jason, don't PRS shooters shoot elsewhere now???
Let's take a step back & look at this from another angle shall we?? I turn up at a PRS shoot with an unbraked F-Class rifle & because I can't see the fall of shot due to the no brake situation (call it recoil), will PRS allow me sighters to get on target because my rifle is unbraked?? I think not! So then I would have to evolve to PRS rules.......... wouldn't I? One cannot have one's cake & eat it too........can they???
Really what you are telling me here is we have a few F-Class shooters who have PRS rifles & shoot PRS & they want the majority to evolve to the minority, so please explain how that can be seen as fair? Where are the PRS only shooters in this discussion, I suspect they really don't care!!!
Keith H.


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