F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

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AlanF
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#61 Postby AlanF » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:28 pm

argh wrote:...Some on here are even advocating that we do not want to actively target certain demographics into our sport.
Rather than spending time and effort trying to attract young people, why not recognise that they are more likely to be attracted to other forms of shooting, and concentrate our F-Class recruiting efforts on the 50s plus age group, where we'll get a better return on investment. By all means encourage young people to come and have a go, and plant the seeds for them to possibly return later in life.


(well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black !)

If you want this sport, or any sport/activity to grow or at least keep up with attrition of elderly members, then you need to move with the times. JUST AS HAPPENED when when FClass become a discipline...

Adrian,

You obviously don't understand where I'm coming from on this. Of course we should try to encourage young people into shooting, but its very difficult to recruit them into for example F-Open as it is now. But importantly we shouldn't be changing F-Open to suit them. Its doing fine as it is and you'd upset a lot of people who have invested time and money to get where they are. The NRAA should be creating a new class as Denis is suggesting. That is what happened when F-Class was born - TR was largely unaffected apart from having to share the facilities. And whether the new class is a sub-class of F-Class or is called Field Class or Practical Class isn't important.

I stand by the recommendation that F-Open should target their recruitment at older males. And the new class would look to younger candidates such as yourself, and who knows, you might decide to try F-Open when your circumstances change.

Alan

argh
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#62 Postby argh » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:10 pm

Alan

I dont think anyone has suggested changing f open, or that there is a problem recruiting into FOpen per say ... merely FClass..... as a whole..... who cares about the divisions between FStandard FTR and FOpen in the context of this discussion Although sometimes i do wonder, but i assumed this thread, and this forum was about FClass... not just FOpen.
This thread is about how to attract new people to FClass, and perhaps having a less demanding category such as factory/practical will attract newbies from hunting as well as younger people who read the US press and are attracted to tactical/practical shooting and rifles. Its about moving with the times and survival as a sport... not about which FClass category is the best.

AlanF wrote:I stand by the recommendation that F-Open should target their recruitment at older males. And the new class would look to younger candidates such as yourself, and who knows, you might decide to try F-Open when your circumstances change.

Alan


Now. Can you please explain to me how i am not meant to read this comment as condescending, and somehow painting FOpen as some sort of higher more prestigious form of shooting under the NRAA annex?
I am more than happy in FStandard with a more even competition level, and i am more than happy with my scores in this discipline.... especially when i havent had to outlay huge quantities of money on gear.
FFS, The last thing our sport needs is people trying to describe it as being elite and scaring newbies away. Thankfully, no people in the two clubs i have been associated with have thought.. or at least openly implied that FOpen was a more elite discipline in FClass.

I look forward to your response on how you believe i should have interpreted your last post

Adrian

AlanF
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#63 Postby AlanF » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:41 pm

Adrian,

In your original "rant" as you called it, you used your own "history" to tell us that you couldn't afford a custom rifle but intended to progressively upgrade to something more competitive. If you took my suggestion of going to F-Open one day as condescending, then that's your problem - I was also trying to make the point that younger shooters can start in this proposed new class, and F-Open will get some of them later. And in terms of the level of competition, which does seem to be important to you, F-Open and F/TR currently offer a very high level internationally.

I apologise to Denis that this diversion has detracted from the discussion. How about we get back to it?

Alan

johnk
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#64 Postby johnk » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:13 pm

DenisA wrote:Why can’t we allow them to use muzzle brakes on their side of the range?

Why can’t they use magazines with the correct safety procedures on ex-mil ranges?

Denis,

The two of your original questions that haven't been addressed properly are those above. The answers arguably are:

Muzzle brakes are excluded in the SSRs for all disciplines & their use on a given range may contravene your range approval, range standing orders & if so, put your NRAA arranged insurance at risk.

Magazine feeding of more than a single round is only permitted in specified NRAA events (Field, Service & Rimfire) & in that case would require a FSR accredited range officer to officiate at all events. In any case, I don't believe that it can be conducted in conjunction with "standard" events (for want of a better word), certainly not with shared range officers, remembering that NRAA & SSAA FSR rules require two officials to manage a loaded magazine event. In any case, it would only be acceptable subject to the range standing orders & range approval - if your range isn't approved for FSR, you can't magazine load under any circumstance.

The historical use of a range by the military is of no consequence once the range has been handed over to state government control & approval. I realise that there are still ranges controlled by the military and "subleased" by state associations or clubs, but it seems pointless to float a possibility that has limited application.

John

DenisA
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#65 Postby DenisA » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:59 pm

johnk wrote:
DenisA wrote:Why can’t we allow them to use muzzle brakes on their side of the range?

Why can’t they use magazines with the correct safety procedures on ex-mil ranges?

Denis,

The two of your original questions that haven't been addressed properly are those above. The answers arguably are:

Muzzle brakes are excluded in the SSRs for all disciplines & their use on a given range may contravene your range approval, range standing orders & if so, put your NRAA arranged insurance at risk.

Magazine feeding of more than a single round is only permitted in specified NRAA events (Field, Service & Rimfire) & in that case would require a FSR accredited range officer to officiate at all events. In any case, I don't believe that it can be conducted in conjunction with "standard" events (for want of a better word), certainly not with shared range officers, remembering that NRAA & SSAA FSR rules require two officials to manage a loaded magazine event. In any case, it would only be acceptable subject to the range standing orders & range approval - if your range isn't approved for FSR, you can't magazine load under any circumstance.

The historical use of a range by the military is of no consequence once the range has been handed over to state government control & approval. I realise that there are still ranges controlled by the military and "subleased" by state associations or clubs, but it seems pointless to float a possibility that has limited application.

John


Hi John thanks for that info.

Since my first post, through the course of this discussion, I've shifted my opinion slightly.

Considering that my competition suggestion is focused purely on a class shot on regular club days I think single round loading the repeater actions is a good way to blend practical and F-class. Multi round loading will no doubt be in the SSAA's new practical discipline which we don't need to replicate.

One of the key features of a successful system will be ease of running and setup which is a far higher priority than chambering the next round instantly. It would be nice, but not worth sinking a potentially successful idea over.

I hope there is a means or a loop hole that may allow muzzle brake usage as that would be a HUGE advantage in attracting many more shooters. Are muzzle brakes disallowed in the SSRs for the reduced recoil advantage that they give in official comps or is for safety reasons. Because this class I have in mind would not be an official competition.

argh
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#66 Postby argh » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:17 pm

I agree Alan, lets get back to the issue that Denis has started. Which is directly where I am aiming these following comments.

The first and primary idea that has been discussed by lots of people in this thread, and one of the main issues that Denis raised. Why do we raise FClass to such a high level sport to the detriment of attracting new members, and can an alternative class be introduced for Tactical/Practical/Varmint/Hunter classes (such as benchrest Hunter class) so as to attract those new members who can use existing said classes of firearm, or use off the shelf firearms and not feel too disadvantaged by doing so? This is particularly important over the first year or so as new shooters learn to read wind flags and conditions, and get used to the sport. I think its fair to say that most posters in this topic so far have supported this idea of a new class or sub class at club level - but no changes to FOpen category.

The second idea or point that is being made in Denis original post, is why do we treat newbies who shoot different styles of rifles differently? Why is the use of tactical style rifles frowned upon by some club members (in the same way that once FClass was once treated by Target Rifle shooters) ?? Why do club web pages state such things as "Off the shelf rifles are not suited to this style of shooting".... well if I read that on a club web site as a newbie, I probably would not turn up and even try to shoot my new Remington Varmint rifle at long range... even though it will probably shoot very well! Why do we not allow magazine feed, why are there no muzzle breaks allowed? BTW, my own club has that statement listed on their web site, and no I dont have a new remington

Denis has stated that with newbies and come and try people, a large amount of them are "put off" so to speak after they are told what the cost of the sport is. I have tried to explain by way of my experience, that to become reasonably competitive, you do not have to spend a fortune on rifles and scopes. A reasonable omark with a good barrel can be picked up cheaply and be competitive, rifles such as Remington's, Tika, Howa, Savage can be used and upgraded over time to be relatively fair rifles. Lots of Savage rifles getting around, including Denis' own rifles, plenty of re-barreled Tika apparently doing well, and I have seen several Weatherby/Howa's now that do well at club level.

The point I have tried to make, is to back up the concept of a new tactical/varmint/factory class as an entry point, AND that you can also become relatively competitive with simple upgrades on these same base factory rifles. If we have a sub discipline in FClass that does not require high end gear to be competitive at club level we will attract new shooters, grow our membership base and grow the sport. The idea of not wanting to target young people as new members is strange and regressive - to suggest that we plant the seed and hope they return later in life is again strange, if you turn them away now by having a bad attitude, then there is a high chance they will see fullbore and FClass shooters as elitist and NOT want to return in the future.


I'll just list the points from the original post for refreshing


Why can’t we set up to have practical and varmint rifles shoot along side us at club shoots?

Why can’t we allow them to use muzzle brakes on their side of the range?

Why can’t they use magazines with the correct safety procedures on ex-mil ranges?

Why is their style of shooting any less important than ours?

Why is there so much resistance to growth and different disciplines from within our own shooting community? After all, it's all long range fun and many principals are the same.


The last two questions by Denis from his original post remain central to what I am saying, why is one style of shooting any less important than ours (including why is ones sub discipline better than another), and why is there so much resistance to growth? These two points are unfortunately something that I have seen at club level and by some of the members on this site. There is resistance to change, unless that change is to suit their own purposes and styles. Changing with the times and updating ideas should be seen as a good thing. Not changing with the word around you creates stagnation, and stagnation and complacency causes deterioration and decay, especially when applied to such things as we are discussing with Fullbore target shooting. Being elitist and suggesting that other styles of shooting or firearms are less important creates a divide (as per the recent posts in this topic).

Denis, sorry for this diversion, but I agree with what you have said, I think a new hunter/factory class as North Arm has unofficially had when I was up there, is a great idea to attract those new members, younger members, and members with different ideas on what target rifles may or may not look like. We have the same down here, and we probably need to actively encourage a few more of them to come along and help grow our club.

Cheers
Adrian

Norm
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#67 Postby Norm » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:27 pm

As a matter of interest, what category would this event come under?

http://www.vra.asn.au/pm_flyers/2015/Castlemaine%20Practical%20Rifle%202015.pdf

DenisA
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#68 Postby DenisA » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:30 pm

Adrian, thanks for your support and enthusiasm of this topic.

Although we do happily have some shooting practical and varmint rifles at North Arm, they have not been non shooters turn club member via CAT days. In fact the number of those shooters have dropped away a little since you were up here. Everyone has had shooting experience in the past and I stand to be corrected, but I believe all have been shooting at the SSAA first.

I'd just like to re-iterate that my frustration with acquiring non shooting new members via CAT's was part catalyst for suggesting that we focus on increasing the number of SSAA shooters by opening a communication channel with SSAA and welcoming them by way of specific class............... at club level.

ecomeat
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#69 Postby ecomeat » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:37 am

DenisA wrote:I hope there is a means or a loop hole that may allow muzzle brake usage as that would be a HUGE advantage in attracting many more shooters. Are muzzle brakes disallowed in the SSRs for the reduced recoil advantage that they give in official comps or is for safety reasons.
[/quote]

I think that would be so that less shooters have permanent hearing damage inflicted by a fellow competitor :evil:
I had a shooter with a 300 Win Mag and muzzle break let one go before the command to fire had been given at a 1000 yd BR event, while I was about 3 feet away and actually in the process of putting my ear muffs on. Two years of constant tinnitus later, and I am firmly against anyone with a break on being allowed anywhere within 30 feet of another competitor on a mound.
I strongly support the general direction of what you are proposing, but I for one will refuse to play if muzzle breaks aren't either banned completely or kept a guaranteed minimum of 30 feet from me. You would have to be assaulted by a muzzle break blast from a heavy calibre to fully appreciate how dangerous it can be, and the damage that can be done.
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

johnk
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#70 Postby johnk » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:02 am

ecomeat wrote:I had a shooter with a 300 Win Mag and muzzle break let one go before the command to fire had been given at a 1000 yd BR event, while I was about 3 feet away and actually in the process of putting my ear muffs on.

Tony,

The practice for braked shooters is/was that you provided ply side baffles to clamp to the bench to avoid that issue, but maybe that's not mandatory.

Dennis,

QED

John

DenisA
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#71 Postby DenisA » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:12 am

Tony it is annoying to shoot next to a muzzle break even with ear muffs on. The muzzle blast is like a slap in the face. That's why a I suggested at the start that they could be used at one of the mound.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Its an understandable reaction to muzzle brakes given your situation.

Tim N
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#72 Postby Tim N » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:23 am

Hi All,
Hopefully this hasn't already been covered.
If someone with a factory rifle and bi pod etc wants to shoot long range they can shoot in F open.
Should there be a few of them they could have their own private comp, which means it's about getting out having a shot, meeting other shooters and having FUN.
I imagine this could operate alongside any OPM etc and not add any extra work to the organisers, only to the persons wanting to promote club/sport growth...
There would also be the issue of people not being members of the nraa which might be overcome with an extra charge for the day in the form of a temporary membership?
United we stand...
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

DenisA
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#73 Postby DenisA » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:57 am

johnk wrote:Dennis,

QED

John


Quod erat demonstrandum - "which was to be demonstrated" ???

AlanF
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#74 Postby AlanF » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:21 am

I think he meant FYI. :D

johnk
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Re: F-class is an advanced discipline. $ stops new shooters

#75 Postby johnk » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:26 am

No he didn't. He meant that brakes are noisy buggers and antisocial.

Denis talks about the other side of the range, but that's still not too flash for the sufferers.


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