Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action combos

If you shoot full-bore, then you're welcome to use this forum to discuss your sport.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
Gerard
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:36 pm
Location: Rifle Range QLD

Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action combos

#1 Postby Gerard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:53 am

Hi Guys,

I have a dilemma, I want to upgrade to a tier one target rifle setup but am struggling to find an action and stock combination that suits my objectives.

Specifically:
1) I want to reload from the shoulder.
2) I don't want to have to move my face to dodge the bolt (i.e. I want to maintain cheek weld).
3) I want a very configurable stock.
4) I want a high quality action, designed for TR.

With my current old Angel in LWS I am able to 'roughly' manage some of the above, but with a slightly uncomfortable/not ideal long length of pull (stretch to the loading port). On opening the bolt, with head in position the bolt touches my cheek, but only just, so its manageable perhaps with only slight head movement. Not ideal, but almost there.

In my research for the ideal TR system for me I thought I had identified the appropriate action: RPA Quadlock, as it meets my tier one quality criteria and offers a closer trigger to loading port distance than a Barnard.. therefore easier to load from the shoulder without stretching (additional movement that could impact Natural point of aim). Being a Quadlock, the bolt close seems to be a little hard to close (even with Factory ammo), so some twisting of the stock was evident, but the rifle I tried was virtually new, so I guess with a little grease and wear it wouldn't be an issue to the point you loose position when closing the bolt. BUT the show stopping issue for me is that on opening the bolt its smacks you straight in the teeth... We experimented with the Stock (G&E Revolution III) and even at full LOP there didn't seem to be a way to load from the shoulder without moving your head to open the bolt.
So.. the advantage of a closer loading port seems to have the negative of a closer bolt to your face... at least an issue for me personally with the G&E stock design.

So this is a spanner in the works for my intended new TR rifle setup and I'm now back to the drawing board and considering completely different designs (I was set on a RPA with G&E or Gemini stock).

Am I chasing the impossible??

What, I think may provide the solution Im chasing is an Eliseo Tube stock. Action will have to be Barnard though with the further away loading port, but that may not be an issue as the whole bolt opens BELOW your face and therefore in theory you could considerably shorten the Length of Pull and be within loading distance without stretch.

Does anyone here share the same objectives as me (Shoots Target Rifle, Loading from the shoulder, maintaining cheek weld throughout the string of shots) and if so, what set up are you using??

Thanks for any thoughts/advice.

If the opportunity presented itself I would be VERY keen on trying different stock options that may work (i.e. if reasonably local I would like to visit your range and if ok, dry fire (snap cap) your setup to see if that design works for me. Im particularly interested in trying a Tube Stock, Gemini, Jame Corbett style alloy stock... given the opportunity.
Im set to buy/assemble a new TR rifle and want to get it right first time.... its too expensive to make a mistake.

cheers,
G.

Singo85
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:04 am
Location: NSW

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#2 Postby Singo85 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:51 pm

Gerard,

Shooting F-Class would meet requirements 1 thru 4.

And the other benefit is no silly leather jacket in 40 degree heat.

Just putting it out there.
Cheers
Michael "Machine Gun" Singleton

johnk
Posts: 2168
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:55 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#3 Postby johnk » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:33 pm

Gerard,

If you shoot with a slightly shorter stock & consequentially lie at a lesser angle to the target, the loading port gets closer with about any action. Check it out if you have an adjustable stock now.

John

scott/r
Posts: 570
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
Location: far north brisbane

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#4 Postby scott/r » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:55 pm

Maybe you might be selling yourself short by not including a good quality timber stock. Especially if you already have one that almost has you where you want to be. Without putting down the lwb stock, they are getting a few years on them now and you can get alot of adjustment out of a mastin stock and he also offers an offset butt now. There are a lot of really good stocks out there now that leave the lwb looking a bit hohum and they aren't all aluminium.

lonerider43
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:55 pm

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#5 Postby lonerider43 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:03 pm

scott/r wrote:There are a lot of really good stocks out there now that leave the lwb looking a bit hohum and they aren't all aluminium.

for instance ?
Australian's Against "Gun-A-Phobia"

scott/r
Posts: 570
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
Location: far north brisbane

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#6 Postby scott/r » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:58 pm

Well to start with you have the mastin range of stocks. With all the different types of butt plates and cheak pieces that he offers or you could add yourself, adjustments are pretty close to endless. My brother inlaw just had Matt P build a barnard action in a timber stock that Matt finished off with some very cool adjustable hardware. I'm not saying that you'll get the adjustments you'd get out of a G&E or a gemini, but Gerard is pretty close to the setup he's looking for.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling the lwb stocks a stick by any means. I actually just sold my last one because I didn't want to cut it up to put the adjustable pieces in it.

Gerard
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:36 pm
Location: Rifle Range QLD

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#7 Postby Gerard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:18 pm

My LWS is modified (which is why I'm close to what I want from a stock configuration at least) and I must say it was very well done, by Dr Morris.
I could ask the Doc to make a similar one to suit whatever action I settle on, but just fear going to that overall expense with a new action etc and too late finding that I still can't comfortably load from the shoulder and maintain cheek weld.
So, I'm really wondering what the top TR guys do to solve this problem, or perhaps they don't.

Although arguably a little ugly, the Tube stocks seem to offer a solution. Your face is never in the way when opening the bolt as it is beneath you, so you can maintain cheek weld throughout your sting of shots. Also you can greatly reduce LOP to make it easy to reach the loading port without again the bolt opening contacting your face. But then maybe you could achieve a similar result by simply mounting your sights and cheek piece high on a standard timber stock. ... Then, maybe that is all a bad idea as a very high centre of gravity isn't going to be as stable.

Dam, I really wish I had paid more attention to other shooters at Queens,, lol!


PS.. I shot a 50.5 at Crows Nest on Monday.. , no mat, straight on the grass :) So the Angel is still a great rifle irrespective of age :)

scott/r
Posts: 570
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
Location: far north brisbane

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#8 Postby scott/r » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:07 pm

You can strap my rifle on next time to see how it fits if you like. I can't quite reach the spent shell in the port of the barnard, but I shoot on quite an angle, which does make a difference.

Gerard
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:36 pm
Location: Rifle Range QLD

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#9 Postby Gerard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:04 pm

Thanks Scott, and I may take you up on that, just for a dry fire test,
In follow up to your expression of interest about Gatton over the Christmas period,
I will let you know when the range is open (I believe we will probably miss only 1 week over the vacation period, but let me check when and which).
You could be lucky and your availability coincides with a 900yrd week, my personal fav! :)
Like North Arm, we have a 'gully monster' ;) I feed it weekly with 155 HBCs.. apparently its favourite. ;)

scott/r
Posts: 570
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
Location: far north brisbane

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#10 Postby scott/r » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:45 am

Cool. Hopefully I'll get my rifle back reasonably quickly so I can get the new barrel run in before hand.

!Peter!
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:35 am

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#11 Postby !Peter! » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:52 am

Gerard,
I'd question the need to keep your face on the check piece while reloading. In smallbore, a sign that you've got your natural point of aim correct is when the sights settle back onto the bull such that if you fired another round it would be an X. However, due to the recoil in fullbore your position will move and therefore you will need to reset your position to align your natural point of aim with the V. I also lift my head up to look around at the conditions when I'm shooting fullbore.

To comfortably load from the shoulder a straighter position is needed as this reduces the length of pull. However, as always in shooting, there are knock on effects. You may find that the check piece needs to be moved further to the right for a right hand shooter then the stock can allow to get your eye behind the sights without canting the rifle.

I'm currently working on getting a tube stock to fit my position and have to get a new offset backend made as the standard straight backend doesn't allow me to get a proper head position.

If you are looking for a short action, the CG inch is the shortest target rifle action I know of.

!Peter!

bsouthernau
Posts: 617
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#12 Postby bsouthernau » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:02 am

!Peter! wrote:Gerard,
I'd question the need to keep your face on the check piece while reloading.

!Peter!


There are two schools of thought on this. As I recall Spencer Dunstall came down on the side of rebuilding the position for each shot in one of his ATR articles a while ago. James Corbett does this and it doesn't seem to do much harm to his scores.

Barry

bainp
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:05 pm
Location: Wagga Wagga, Australia

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#13 Postby bainp » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:22 pm

I think the position of the trigger on the action body is one of the prime factors in the problems you have raised.
If the trigger is well forward on the action body, you have to install the action in the stock well back so that your finger can actually reach the trigger. This means that the rear of the action is almost in your face. When you open the bolt it must hit the cheekpiece if you are using a raised cheek piece.
I have a Quadlock that has a very large cut out in the cheek piece in order to clear the bolt at the rear most extent of bolt throw and I cannot get the adjustable cheek piece as high as I would like it without further cutting the front of the cheekpiece.
The Barnard that I own still needs some cutout of the cheekpiece, but a little less than the Quadlock. If you compare the two actions the position of trigger on the Barnard is a little further to the rear than the Quadlock.
The second factor is the length of the bolt throw before the loading port is fully open.
Both of the preceeding mentioned actions have a long bolt throw compared to a much older action such as an Omark. The Omark had the trigger mounted well to the rear of the action, and quite a short bolt throw, from memory about 25mm shorter than the Barnard.
I have two Maddco actions and neither require any cutout in the adjustable cheekpiece when mounted in identical stocks to the Barnard and Quadlock rifles. The Maddco action is virtually a Remington clone. There are many Remington clone actions around that most likely have the trigger mounted well back on the action body and a relatively short bolt throw.
I am not saying that this is necessarily the way to go but it gives you an idea of what to look for in your search for a solution.
Philip

Razer
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:44 pm
Location: Orange,N.S.W.

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#14 Postby Razer » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:43 pm

This topic started off with an Angel action in a LWS which is the exact configuration of my sons TR rig. The only stock adjustment is a sliding butt plate which only moves in the vertical plane.
My son has shot this rifle from 2002 to when family matters took precedence last year and he no longer shoots.
He was 16 when he started TR and for the whole time he shot he always rebuilt his position and, being completely impartial here, he was a bloody good shot having represented Country v City under 25's many times and also shooting for state junior championships and on one occasion lost by 1 point having shot 199-23 which was equal to the senior second place but both had more centres than the winners.
I believe that his calm approach and the rebuilding of his position was paramount to his success and that to try and keep constant unbroken cheek weld compromises too many other factors.
He shot, kept his eyes on the flags, dropped the butt off his shoulder, ejected, caught the bloody case and placed it in the box, reloaded, butt back onto shoulder and his eyes never left the flags!
Consistency with a fluid movement is essential whether shooting TR or Fclass and if you observe all top shooters you will notice that this is the case. Trying to make a butt, trigger placement, eye relief to fit in with a particular whim is counterproductive. Find what you are most comfortable with before all else, such as elbow placement, sling length, etc as these take precedence over chasing one ideal such as cheek weld. Then practice dry firing as much as possible to refine your position. This is just my humble opinion and will stand corrected. :)

Gerard
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:36 pm
Location: Rifle Range QLD

Re: Reloading from the shoulder - different Stock/Action com

#15 Postby Gerard » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:02 pm

Thanks to all for valid comments and its interesting to hear that not many seem to advocate loading from the shoulder and trying to maintain cheek weld as much as is possible.
Very good points made and good food for thought, indeed I accept that the practice of trying to maintain cheek weld is very likely unsuited to full bore due to recoil knocking you, to some extent, out of position.

Also the physical differences in actions, in particular stretch to loading port and trigger position differences between RPA/Bevan and Barnard/Remington is definitely something I have been made aware of (much thanks to Mr Corbett :) and reiterated just now by Philip "bainp" on this thread).

With my Angel in a modified LWS stock (adjustable cheek rest and adjustable pull) I can almost manage to do what I'm striving for, but considering I'm in the market for a new high quality TR rifle, I thought that the problems I'm facing with my current setup must long have been addressed by experienced shooters, so am definitely willing to listen and learn from that.

Will definitely be paying more attention to other TR shooters and observing what stock configuration and loading process works for them, bring on the next prize meets.

*** Anyone local (Bris to Gundi) that has either a RPA or Barnard in a Eliseo or Gemini stock? If so, would you be ok if I came out to one of your club shoots and try dry fire (snap cap) your rifle in prone position?? I know thats a big ask.. will buy you a beer! :)

Keen to make sure that whatever I end up buying/building is going to be comfortable for me. Its a lot of cash, so buying once is the way to go.

Did, see that CG Inch actioned Gemini stocked rifle on Used Guns and its tempting given what was mentioned about the design/ short bolt length.
But, I think perhaps a RPA or Barnard is the way to go for me.


Return to “Full-bore/Target Rifle”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests