what tr needs

[AlanF]

David,

You're welcome to go and pick on the anti-gun lobby, but I didn't mean you in particular.

Re: persuasion, you can call it reasoned argument, whatever - if you disagree with someone's point of view, you can give an opposing one. Those watching on will make up their own minds.

Alan

[David B]

Alan, I must apologise my question was not clear enough, there must some example of where as the admin you have tried to persuade people on this site there is nothing gained by sniping at other disciplines?

[AlanF]

Alan, I must apologise my question was not clear enough, there must some example of where as the admin you have tried to persuade people on this site there is nothing gained by sniping at other disciplines?

David,

You've put me on the spot a bit there. I've done about 4,500 posts on this website - how about I say there are probably some examples - you're welcome to trawl through them. But to save you the trouble, I will now state my position towards the criticism of TR shooting and shooters by F-Class shooters :

There is too much of it going on, and it achieves nothing for anyone. We need to work together for our mutual benefit. TR and F-Class have a lot in common - virtually everything except the sights and rifle support are the same. And there is plenty of room on the ranges for everyone - so much that we need to think seriously about what comes after F-Class. Most of the best leaders and administrators in the sport are TR - those who criticise need to stop and think how it would be if F-Class shooters had to fill the shoes of all these people. As I said above, if we want to take out our frustrations, we should be attacking the real enemies of our sport, the anti-gun lobby.

Alan

[johnk]

Well said, Alan.

It concerns me that we (open range shooters) tend to turn on each other rather than search out and address the issues that are restricting entry into our sport - and I can't think of any that relate to the rifles we shoot or the clobber we wear on the range.

As I see it, the guts of the matter is that it takes not a little amount of money, time & experience to become comfortable with our style of shooting, be it TR or any of the F classes. Time & time again, those in management who seek out answers come up with generally the same suggestion, namely that our sport may be attractive to empty nesters with a modicum of disposable income & a desire to achieve in a sport that suits their mature bodies. That the greater proportion of those who take up the challenge select a scoped alternative is a reflection of the discipline that best supports waning visual acuity.

On the other hand, as those who travel north of the Clarence to Belmont will attest, the CATTS (Come & Try Target Shooting) program run by a bunch of TR & F class shooters has had good results, bringing both F & TR acolytes into the game.

I don't know of any instances locally (SE Queensland) where shooters of any discipline are put down by their clubmates, albeit one local club is unashamedly TR exclusive, but even in that case, they courteously direct aspiring F classers to suitable alternative clubs. Of course, there are individual TR shooters who are antipathetic to F classers, just as there are the reverse.

John

[David B]

Thank you Alan, I am in total agreement with you.

[Range Rector]

Good Dave and Alan.
We need each other to survive in this sport, let the politians of this country act like idiots. Just think, if the Labour and Liberal Parties worked together to cure problems how smooth things would run.

[Norm]

Budget,

You know norm here's the thing,firstly I'm a tr shooter have been since 1973 so I think I deserve the right to reply. Can't remember ever asking a f class shooter to be my bloody saviour and certainly won't be in the future. People have asked me many times why there is a deviide between f class and tr well I should just guide them to your comments and actually this whole forum in general that would certainly paint a good picture. We do not need disruptive comments continually posted about how each other's discipline is dieing or what we are going to do when we get the numbers. Absolutely abysmal some of the stuff posted on here especially from people that have been in the sport for 5minutes. ( not directed at you)
We would be a lot better off if we just went out shooting for the love of it and just enjoyed each other's company whether you shoot with a peep sight or a scope, instead of the continued snipping that goes on here.

Budget,
Nothing I said was sniping at TR. Indeed I would like to see TR shooting progress and have a bright future.
However I have no interest in shooting TR. Why? Maybe because I have never been encouraged to try it? No one has ever approached me and said "Here have a go of my rifle".

If you feel that TR is thriving and has a bright future then good on you. You have nothing to worry about.

[budget]

It is sad to see any shooting discipline decline in popularity. But TR shooters are responsible for their own destiny, they should not expect F-Class shooters to be their saviour.
I have no interest in TR. Its popularity means no more to me than that of small bore shooting, another discipline that I have no interest in.

Although I have no interest in Small Bore shooting, I do note it is becoming quite popular in my area and good on them. They must be doing something right. Maybe TR shooters should ask why.

If TR shooting fades off into obscurity then they can only blame themselves. The only way that they can survive is to create renewed interest in the sport. I can’t see them doing anything to do this at the moment.

well norm,if you believe you werent having a go then suit yourself. read your post for someone that supposedly is not interested in fullbore tr you certainly have a lot to say on the subject.i must admit iam a little confused
what was the post about then if it wasnt taking a shot at fullbore. as far as us surviving most fullbore shooters have been around for years and are totally committed to shooting and will never give the game away. we had about 10 new shooters at our club all f class bar one they are great members and love the sport but are they fully committed ,i think not havent seen them for ages. i think if you did a count on how many people started f class 5 years ago and are now still shooting you would be very surprised by the result. maybe you need to channel your energy into trying to retain the members that have gone missing and not worry about tr. maybe we both have too much time on our hands.
end of the subject for me.

[higginsdj]

However I have no interest in shooting TR. Why? Maybe because I have never been encouraged to try it? No one has ever approached me and said "Here have a go of my rifle".

Not quite that simple Norm. People have Jackets, Rifles and Slings fit specifically to themselves and probably don't want to undo all the work to get to that point to 'fit' it to someone else. Does your club not have gear available to new shooters for you to try?

We introduce new shooters using F Class since it it pretty easy to get them set up and hitting the Bullseye within a couple of shots. TR takes longer to set up, is quite uncomfortable for new shooters and we struggle to get them to simply hit the target!

Lets face it, is a new shooter going to return again if they can't hit the target and it feels awkward and uncomfortable? F-Class is the perfect introduction to the sport where shooters can choose to stay or migrate to TR (like I did).

(Note I am not saying TR is harder than F-Class - it's a different discipline)

Cheers

David

[bruce moulds]

as the starter of this thread, I am glad the debate continues.
although when all is said and done, more will be said than done, debate can at least lead to something.
overall, budget is correct in identifying tr shooters as averagely more dedicated than fclass shooters. this is born out by percentages at prize shoots.
fclassers have dedicated members in their ranks too, as well as some that come and some that go.
overall however, fclass numbers are growing faster than tr.
the bid concern with tr is what will happen when the current participants become the old dead guys.
as things are now, it would mean less tr %ages at prize shoots, and also less shooters overall.
I would love to see clubs having a selection of jackets and slings available for visitors, and tr shooters aggressively giving them coached sessions well set up with good rifles and sights, and send them home with a plot sheet containing a few bulls and vbulls to gloat over.
yes, small bore clubs are now turning away new members due to being full up.
both fclass and tr can learn from this and saddle up instead of sitting around the campfire.
keep safe,
bruce.

[IanP]

I was interested to read Bruce's comments about smallbore clubs turning away prospective members, as there being no more room at the club for increased numbers.

I started out formal rifle shooting with the Adelaide Smallbore Club and loved it. Years later, (20+ years) decided to try fullbore but did not want to wear a coat and go back to using a sling and glove. F-Class seemed to me the way to go as it was using rifle scopes and rests or bipods and seemed more, (to me) in keeping with how people shoot long range rifles in the 21st century.

Regardless of personal preference for TR or F-Class equipment, the vast majority of shooters in our sport are helpful and friendly and I enjoy meeting up with them at the range each week.

Its not for lack of great clubs and friendly faces that we are losing out to smallbore its just that people like a few basic comforts these days when they compete in a sport. Smallbore offers its membership cover from the elements, (sun & rain) in which to shoot from. It also has things as basic as toilets on or near the range.

If we are serious about attracting an increasing membership then perhaps we should have marquees erected on the mounds and mobile toilets close handy. We live in Australia and face the highest incidence of skin cancer in the world but almost all our ranges dont have shelter to provide shade. Its in our SSRs that we must shoot on open mounds without shelter and I for one think this is a major problem.

If we change our club policies to allow shelter on the mounds we would be taking a big step forward in attracting people to our sport. People are all too aware of the dangers of our sunshine. Comfort and safety is a major concern for a lot of prospective members that are considering staying within a sport for a long period of time.

We need to implement club policies that reflect health and safety concerns that are addressed in smallbore clubs. While its a much more difficult task to provide shelter and toilets on a range that is of variable length out to 1000 yards, this issue needs to be addressed.

Ian

[budget]

hi ian,
what you say is correct .about ten to twelve years ago the older guys at our club were having problems related with heat so early november every year we start shooting in the morning.we shoot like this until it starts to get cooler say around april. when i started shooting as a lad we had 25- 30 shooters out every saturday and it would have been a bit hard to organize but now our numbers are down to 10-12 everybody is happy to keep out of the heat. we also erect one of those portable shades to sit under,and yes as i get older even i am feeling the heat with two jumpers, one leather coat, hat, earmuffs and glove.
regards paul

[bruce moulds]

to achieve anything requires several things.
first is a vision.
people tent to be reticent about presenting a vision in case they are perceived as stupid. constructive discussions of visions will create good, realistic ones.
second is a plan.
all plans come from some sort of vision, but bring the vision into reality. nothing is achieved without a plan. if the plan is lacking or wrong, this can be identified during the process of implementation, and altered for success, or dropped in favour of a better one. plans require constant greasing as they progress. they must often integrate with other plans for max achievement.
third is goals.
no plan can progress without step by step goals. achieve one and move on to the next.
these things are lacking in most clubs, dra's, state assns., and the nraa.
there is very little vision, so the coat tail effect is nil in certain areas, particularly membership.
fclass and tr are in the same boat here, and it is an area where we can work together.
keep safe,
bruce.

[RMc]

Norm

Nothing I said was sniping at TR. Indeed I would like to see TR shooting progress and have a bright future.
However I have no interest in shooting TR. Why? Maybe because I have never been encouraged to try it? No one has ever approached me and said "Here have a go of my rifle".

If you feel that TR is thriving and has a bright future then good on you. You have nothing to worry about.

I do not understand where you are coming from Norm.

I have always been impressed by how well your rifles shoot, but correct me if I am wrong but you have never offered me a shoot of them.

I was lucky enough to be able to buy a good rifle and on numerous occasions if I see someone struggling because of their equipment I set them up with my rifle, so that they can see what they can achieve. Even at the last Pennant match I gave it to someone who's rifle was not ready, even though he was from an opposition club.

We have a Pennant on Saturday week, I will bring along an extra 24 rounds and you are quite welcome to shoot the match with my rifle. If you showed an interest in TR at any stage when I was at the range then this offer would had been made long ago.

Lets hope that all us as long range target shooters just enjoy the sport and keep it going. I do not know where all this 'us and them' comes from but too many threads on this site go on the wrong tangent.

For God's sake lets just enjoy the sport