Dies advice for 284 Win

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Toddy
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Dies advice for 284 Win

#1 Postby Toddy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:21 pm

I am after some advice on dies for my 284 Win. My chamber has a 312 neck. What would your recommendations be and what are you using? I currently have a Wilson hand neck bushing die, wilson full length die and a Wilson in line seater. Is it worth getting a blank die and having it reamed using the chamber reamer? I would also like a die that would neck size and bump the shoulder only.

Regards Jarrod

Gyro
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#2 Postby Gyro » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:21 am

Sounds like you have everything you need already mate.

Remember too if you make a FLS die with the chamber reamer then it won't size the case body down. Some guys get a reamer set from the get-go : the set consists of the chamber reamer plus a Resize reamer. The resize reamer is the one that is used to make the FLS die and has been ground to be smaller on diameter than the chamber reamer.

Be careful too about putting too much belief in accuracy gains by having the back end of the chambered case a 'perfect' fit in the chamber. Skipping the FLS step and just bumping the case shoulder back after firing can get you to that place BUT it can also get you to a place where you will have problems with insufficient clearance back there which will give you a bunch of dramas you don't need on the firing line.

Unless - for reasons of clearance - your current FLS die is working the case a lot, then just use that I suggest.

All the above is just MY opinion on what is a topic I see many shooters NOT grasping. Regards Rob.

6.5x55ai
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#3 Postby 6.5x55ai » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:36 am

Gyro is correct with the FLS die from the chambering reamer - it doesn't size the case, well not sufficientl. I have a FLS die made in that manner for my Swede Ackley. The die has been electroless nickel coated and then barely just achieves a sizing.

Forster make a bushing die that sizes the neck and pushes the shoulder back only. Check out BRT. I have no experience of that die but I am however a fan of Redding body dies which of course size the lower body.

Otherwise my set up is much the same as yours - Wilson. Although I did start off and still have a Forster BR seater and a Redding Bushing S die. Back when I got my 284 Redding didn't do a 284 Comp die set otherwise I would probably have got that.

Over the years I have converted all my dies to Wilson inline even those that I have Comp die sets for.

pjifl
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#4 Postby pjifl » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:46 am

It can be useful to make a die with your normal reamer then cut off the top. This will then squash down the body if needed.
Shoulder bump can then be done with another die made with your reamer.

It is not the ideal setup but it can get you out of trouble with a strange wildcat. The body die will not be needed too often.

If you can get quality brass I believe neck turning is a good way to go backwards although once you have the chamber cut you are committed.

Peter Smith.

scott/r
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#5 Postby scott/r » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:54 am

I have been using one of the forster neck/shoulder dies for about 12 months now and am still quite impressed with it. I've resized my cases about 10 times now and haven't even looked like using the body die yet. Adjusting the shoulder bump is quite easy using the locking ring and the neck adjustments (length not diameter) are even easier. The collets are good quality. If you don't neck turn then you'll want a sizing button to go with it.
It's all explained very well on brt website.
And I use the redding comp seating die. Worth every cent you pay for them. I get a very good consistent seating length with these two dies.
Keep in mind that this is for a 308w, not a 284, but good dies are good dies for any caliber.

My apologies, that should have read, " The bushings are good quality" not collects..
Last edited by scott/r on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gyro
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#6 Postby Gyro » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:50 am

Crikey Peter I'm going backwards lol ..... 'Tis a most interesting comment u make there and one of a number of areas I wonder about. Perhaps you are beyond wondering ?

Times change and shooters understanding/beliefs too. If I'm not mistaken there was a time when 'tight necks' ruled. Now increasing numbers of shooters go with a no-neck-turn chamber neck clearance. What to do, especially when the case neck walls are not uniform in thickness ?

bainp
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#7 Postby bainp » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:07 am

Gyro wrote:What to do, especially when the case neck walls are not uniform in thickness ?


If you have a no neck turn chamber and use a mandrel type neck sizing die, I don't believe that some irregularity in case neck thickness matters. This is especially if you have the chamber throat only 0.0005" over bullet size. The bullet enters the throat online, irrespective of the case neck variations (within reason). Additionally, the cone of the case shoulders into the cone of the chamber shoulders should also centre up the bullet in the lead.
Cheers - Philip

Gyro
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#8 Postby Gyro » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:26 am

Mmmmmmmm Philip but what else do we say "doesn't matter"?

I take a whole lot of trouble to chamber my comp rifle making sure the bullet gets to start right in line with the bore so no way is my mind gonna be at peace when I know how uneven the necks are on so-called quality cases ! I know how many of them are shite because I uniform them in the lathe just to get rid of say 80% of the eccentric brass. That matters a lot to my mind. Weighing cases doesn't ....... not yet anyway.

Gyro
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#9 Postby Gyro » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:59 am

Here's a scenario lads : a shooter checks his loaded rounds for run-out ... these ones here are pretty good but these ones are a bit shite so I'll batch them over here and then maybe just use them for sighters. Or maybe use them for Club day.

Why would you use them for sighters ? Ya can't trust where they go ?

But why would you even bother checking for run-out because then you absolutely should be finding out why your ammo is bent. Otherwise it's like going to the doctor with a thorn in your back and the doc just soothes the pain for you but doesn't remove the thorn.

I say uniform the necks, blueprint your sizing dies so they don't produce crooked ammo, then go forth and shoot.

This is only year 7 in F Class for me which is very little compared to many here but doing the above two steps makes sense to me. Regards Rob Kerridge.

bainp
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#10 Postby bainp » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:59 am

If you are using a bushing type die, I would say that necks must be uniform in thickness, because the non-uniformity gets transferred into the inside of the sized neck. When the bullet is seated in the case, it will follow the non concentric neck.
When using the Collet type die, the collet squeezes the neck onto a mandrel that is perfectly round and on centre. I agree that the outside of the neck will not be concentric if there are variations in case neck thickness, but, the inside of the neck will be round and on line. Thus it follows that when the bullet is seated (using a straight line die) that the bullet will be straight and inline. As I said in my previous post, if you have the chamber lead/throat only 0.0005" over bullet size, the bullet must enter the throat online. For this to work, the chamber must be a no neck turn chamber. If the chamber is a tight neck chamber, then the bullet gets misaligned again.
Cheers - Philip

Gyro
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#11 Postby Gyro » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:50 pm

I see what you mean and how your reasoning is sound ( ish ). Had to read it a few times tho.

'Tis an interesting game ! Cheers.

6.5x55ai
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#12 Postby 6.5x55ai » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:33 pm

Getting OT now, sorry, but have been evaluating Lee collet dies lately in my 7.5 Swiss - not available yet in 284W though.

And yes why would you use lesser ammo for sighters. As Jim Sweet said, probably the most important shots you fire.

Currently loading up some 6.5x47L. Runout is 0 to <.5 thou. The brass is unturned and the .5 runout is directly the variation in neck thickness. (Using bushing dies to size.) The 6.5x47L brass seem to be the best of Lapua's for neck wall consistancy. Maybe also Lapua's Russain brass which you also pay an arm and a leg for.

Have acquired some 284 Norma brass and it's consistancy is better than either Norma or Lapua 6.5/284. Will still give it a minor skim which will also bring it into line with my chamber dimensions.

Variation in neck wall thickness is also correspondingly seen in the case wall thickness.You can theorise forever on the dynamics that may cause.

GSells
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#13 Postby GSells » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:41 pm

If I may , where to start ? Ummm, well first up the dies I use for my .284 are just bog stock lee hunting dies that were gathering dust at the gun shop. It's all I could I get at the time and they produce very little run out and great accuracy. I fl size just to bump the shoulder back to allow for easy bolt closure . I use the standard bullet seater in the .284 and 7-08 Ai with very little run out. So there is a budget option for a no turn neck .
I also use Redding neck dies and never fl neck sized! It still worked ! :wink:
I don't see much difference between no turn neck and tight neck . But it's more about the Gun smith and other tolerances .


I've shot some amazing scores while fireforming brass with large runnout . In Fact at the recent Nationals fireformed brass at 300 and 500 yds .
This Brass was used for the last day . So it doesn't make sense why ? :roll:

Just on the weekend at club 900 m, I shot a reasonable score in conditions that blew .308's of the board !! :shock:

That was fireforming with 3 shots 1 fps difference.
So what's important? Just my opinion, but I do weigh my brass. Others take it to another level and volume sort with a fluid and have recently done well! Other do weigh primers and then other weigh
Projectiles !

All of the above is important!! But learning all of the physics eg spindrift and deflection, Magnus effect , gyroscopic vertical procession, ballistic coefficient , optimum charge weight , optimum barrel timing and other stuff that just makes my head ache!!
And Also the most important thing how to wind read !!!
Now my Club mate ( who is also one of my heros , don't tell her that !) is in my opinion ( I'm biased lol!) one of the best lady shooters this country has produced . A member of 2013 Raton team and usually wins or places at any opm she attends !!

While I was testing that 280 Ai ( which is the utube vid at 800 yds ) it was windy!! I thought I've got a 280 Ai , Jm only has a 6 mm ! I should get this one !! :lol:
Well after a 65.5 ( in Qld 2nd detail is 11 shots) in the normal conditions at Mt Pleasant!! I got up and thought " I got this little club Comp in the bag "!! As the range before JM and myself were locked up on the same scores !
So my 65.?? Should have beaten her and that dasher that Cam made !!

Nope , she out wind read me and beat me by 2 x's !!
So I had a huge Balistic advantage but to no avail!

It's wind reading and mirage reading that wins and an accurate rifle does help!!
Any way I go on at times 8)

Toddy
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Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#14 Postby Toddy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:27 pm

Wow. Some absolutely fantastic advice from experienced shooters! This is my first 7mm. Rifle is made up with Barnard action and a Krieger 1:8.5 four groove 32" straight barrel
I have been fire forming my brass 6.5x284 Lapua necked up and neck turned for my chamber. So far it is shooting very well.
It seems that I have the right dies for the job. These have served me well in my Dasher.
I have measured the shoulders and they won't require bumping, but they all needed trimming to length to ensure good feeding.
Thanks again to all for your contribution!

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Dies advice for 284 Win

#15 Postby Gyro » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:25 am

But wait ....... u mention above Toddy about measuring the shoulders : ya know it's very often better to go by feel with a lot of this stuff ie. take the firing pin out and check what's happening with fit with the case in the chamber. If you have fire formed with the ejector pin out and a jammed bullet then u will get a proper fire formed case from the get go. That step is important to me.

And I can't understand why many more of us don't have the Redding Competition Shellholder Set ? Vital I say for the anal reloader who wants to accurately control headspace, which after all is a nominal measurement that the reloader manages ?


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