7 second delay on ETs for US

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Tim N
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7 second delay on ETs for US

#1 Postby Tim N » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:22 pm

Just read on accurate shooter that they put a delay on the ETs for their national championships
I know this has been kicked around before but interesting to see how others are choosing to use ETs
Last edited by Tim N on Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

AlanF
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#2 Postby AlanF » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:10 pm

7 seconds is about right in my opinion. I think the majority of F-Class shooters here would prefer it, but our campaign was derailed, in part because it was put to the vote at NRAA level as a 10 second delay. Will be interesting to see if the delay becomes the norm in the US. If it does then over time they will gain a competitive advantage in wind reading over countries like Australia.

Matt P
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#3 Postby Matt P » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:51 pm

Tim
Don't start him !!!! :roll: :roll:
Matt P

AlanF
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#4 Postby AlanF » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:31 pm

Matt P wrote:Tim
Don't start him !!!! :roll: :roll:
Matt P


Thanks Tim. All information supporting my stance on this issue gratefully received :D .

bartman007
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#5 Postby bartman007 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:55 pm

Good find Tim.

I wonder how long before we adopt such a wise decision.

Pity we didn't beat them to it :P
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Matt P
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#6 Postby Matt P » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:23 pm

Like I've said all along, happy with a delay but with a time limit at the other end as well say 50 seconds.
Can't have it both ways [-X [-X

AlanF
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#7 Postby AlanF » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:59 pm

Matt P wrote:Like I've said all along, happy with a delay but with a time limit at the other end as well say 50 seconds.
Can't have it both ways [-X [-X


Bring it on - that would really test the wind-reading skills, and go a long way towards eliminating the advantage the Poms etc. have when Bisley style is used.

bartman007
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#8 Postby bartman007 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:53 pm

The time delay would reduce the benefits of chasing a spotter. I'm not really sure on the 50 second time limit, as it could be even shorter forcing people to make a call within 30 seconds.

Maybe with ET flexibility, we could have differently timed competitions run at an OPM or Queens. With the ability for competitors to enter twice. Morning could be Rapid fire 3x5shot strings, with the afternoon being Elapsed time 2x10 shot strings. Combine both scores for an Agg.

1. Rapid fire with max time between shots
2. Elapsed time with delay after each shot


Just thinking out loud. It's our sport and we have the ability to shape it for the better.
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ShaneG
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#9 Postby ShaneG » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:47 am

Apparently the SMT showed a value straight away then gave a delay?
Plenty of learning issues as first day reports of acoustic centres not matching optical centres etc!
Then all went quiet?!

As to Bisley - Vicki and I shot Spirit Of America a couple of weeks ago - 4 days of individuals at Raton.
Both of us really liked it! Would prefer to shoot that way all the time!

Shane

Daniel Chisholm
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#10 Postby Daniel Chisholm » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:06 am

ShaneG wrote:Apparently the SMT showed a value straight away then gave a delay?


Yes that is correct:
- fire shot
- as soon as bullet reaches target, shooter and scorekeeper saw the VALUE of the shot (e.g. a 9 or an X), but the POSITION of it was not shown until a 7-second timer ran out

In practice, most scorekeepers would call out the value as soon as it was shown, before he or the shooter knew WHERE the shot was located.

Some shooters elected to fire their next shot before the location of their current shot was shown, especially if the current shot was shown to be an X (though they didn't know if it was a high or low or left or right X). Sometimes this turned out to be a worthwhile risk, sometimes not.

In the first few days of shooting, the shot coords (in mm) were shown along with the the shot value, with no delay. Some shooters discovered this and made use of this. It was generally perceived that this might be a bit of a "cheat" w.r.t. the intention of the 7-second delay, so the display of the shot coords was removed early on in the match.

The shooters meeting at the end of the week was well attended and a lot of thoughtful feedback was given:
  • It seemed to be generally agreed that if a delay was used, that it should apply to both the shot position as well as value
  • many shooters thought the delay was a good thing and should be kept. Some shooters thought there should be no delay. Some shooters thought a longer (10s was mentioned) delay would be better. Some shooters who were previously "yes-delay" switched their opinion to "no-delay" after having fired on the system for a week, and some shooters changed their opinion the other way.
  • a surprisingly large numbers of crossfires were made. A suggestion that a "crossfire received" button might be implemented on the display tablets to expedite the discovery of crossfires was made (a good idea I think)
  • I don't recall there being a clear consensus on whether firing a shot during your 7-second delay should be counted as a miss (you shot while your target was in the pits"), or permitted and counted ("you took a chance and shot fast and blind and without the benefit of knowing where your previous shot was")

Plenty of learning issues as first day reports of acoustic centres not matching optical centres etc!
Then all went quiet?!Shane


There was some confusion as to whether there was a deliberate offset built in. There was not - as best as we possibly could, the targets were calibrated so that a shot in the centre of the X-ring through the paper was reported electronically as a shot through the centre of the x-ring. The day after we calibrated the system I did a spot-check and confirmed that the system used to manage the interchangability of target frames and paper faces was good to within a half inch.

On I think the second day of the midrange match we found one large calibration error (about eight inches vertically on target #30 I think) and two smaller calibration errors (an inch or so) on two other targets, all of which we fixed right away (between the 300->500Y fallback). We were very happy with our end-of-day calibration checks (taking photos of all 30 target faces at the end of each days shooting), all targets remained in calibration (the evidence being that the 400 or so shots fired each day formed a group of shot holes that was centred up).

Lodi is a range that can have quite a bit of vertical; I managed to shoot one day of 3x 600Y and I have to say it was one of the more difficult ranges I have shot on in this regard. Some of the competitors were given sixes on the 1000y LR-FC target and they found it very difficult to believe that the e-targets were telling the truth. As far as I know, in every single case that we investigated (we encouraged the shooters to go down to the pits at the end of the day and look at the targets) those shot holes were found on the targets where they had been reported by the electronics. It didn't exactly make the shooters *happy* to see that, but it did improve their confidence that the e-target system was telling them the (ugly!) truth about some of the more difficult conditions encountered at Lodi. Even though the LR match was attended by 162 topnotch F-Class shooters, each 1000-yard target face had on average five shots in the 6-ring of the target (the 60" white ring, outside the 44" aiming black).... almost as many for elevation as for wind!!

AlanF
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#11 Postby AlanF » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:27 am

Thanks Daniel. Very informative report. From what you heard at the meeting, do you think they will have some sort of delay at future events?

Daniel Chisholm
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#12 Postby Daniel Chisholm » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:11 pm

Hi Alan, the US-NRA highpower committee will meet in a month or so, as they do every year, and decide what rules changes they might want to make for next year's shooting. Of course it is up to them, but if I had to guess I would expect that they will keep the existing rule as-is for another year, as originally planned (as a two-year trial).

The wording of the rule includes wording along the lines of "...where practicable", so it is not an absolute requirement that F-Class shooting on e-targets use it, however since we have implemented it in SMT systems I would imagine most of our customers would use it.

We got some good feedback on the details of how the 7-second delay should be implemented and shown to the shooters and scorekeepers, we'll tweak that in the next release of software.

The only "open" item I can think of would be whether or not the rulesmaking body would like to declare that subsequent shots fired by a competitor within the 7-second delay period should be scored as misses or as valid shots.

Bartlein Barrels NZ
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Re: 7 second delay on ETs for US

#13 Postby Bartlein Barrels NZ » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:19 am

Thanks for the informed reply Daniel. It now make more sense.


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