Future Structure of Queens Events

[johnk]

We paused after 4 shooters at the NRAA Queens, for varying periods of time:

everybody in the first 4 finished
all boards well into the last shooter
no pause (when conditions necessitated).

In all instances when we paused, on my block there was a difference of at least 1½ shooters, several time 2 shooters between the first & last finishing target. On the other hand, when we ran straight through, only a couple of boards with the full complement of 8 shooters finished more than a part of a shooter apart.

In other words, targets tend to level out by the time their full complements of shooters is finished, and the benefit is that you don't waste time during the catch up hiatus.

The vexing issue occurs when shooters don't front or spit the dummy mid shoot. Those targets don't shoot in discipline any more & essentially can't be repaired. When a shooter on one board who complained that he was unable to shoot with his contemporaries, I bit my tongue & didn't ask him to tell me what disciplines were missing so I could pull them out of my arse & patch them in.

Likewise, it's rare that latecomers can be patched in to a correct order (it just could not happen in Townsville) - they go to the bottom of the board - so you just might prefer to check the weather forecasts for the week to help you decide whether to enter in advance or take a ride at the back of the pack.

You're also risking the independence of the promoters. Heck, if it was my Queens, I'd want the largest contingents to finish earliest, so I could get that headache off my lap. The smaller contingents seldom score close, it seems to me.

Wonder how much it would cost to expand our ranges so we could shoot every grade/division in their own unique time slot?

The particular fairness of discipline grading, as I see it, is that lefties don't get to stay together in their own little club any more.

Townsville's experience was both lucky & equable. NQRA squadded by grade or division & rolled over by grade/division. In all but one instance it worked. The shortcoming was that two targets did not have a full row of a particular grade, so when the previous grade went to the bottom of the board, it was necessary for two shooters of the next division down to shoot once with a "foreign" mob & at the next range, with their contemporaries. Not perfection, but they caught back up when their discipline rolled over. On the other hand, with 11 per target, there was a stubby or two between the first & last target finishing, so it really was only the first echelon who shot beside their opponents.

[AlanF]

Matt, shoot NQ next year'...

The worst thing about NQ was that I kept having to shoot at the same time as Marty and Pete .

[Norm]

My thoughts.

1. Keep the 300 or drop it I don't really care. But shooters should be told well in advance if it is going to be dropped so that they can prepare accordingly. Not like the last Vic Queens where the decision to drop it was made far too late.
If the 300 is dropped, I would like to see it replaced with an extra 1000 yard range.

2, Don't mess with FTR. It has international rules and it would be stupid to turn it into a local rules comp.

3 Squadding, I don't like it and think it is just makes the day longer without any real benefit. I would like to see more shooting and less standing around.

[AlanF]

I should emphasize that I would only support selective squadding if it is done well i.e. achieves more fairness without too much time cost. I don't see it as a major issue, and if it doesn't continue, its hardly likely to keep people away (except possibly one shooter of large stature who will remain nameless ).

There are far more urgent issues such as building numbers and securing ranges.

[bartman007]

SARA did squadding this year, and it worked well. F Classes rotated within their class, then TR rotated within their grades. Both groups alternated top and bottom of order each day.

I felt as did many others that we got to shoot at the same time or within 1 shooter of each other. There is clearly something to be said for shooting around the same time as your class, as conditions normally change dramatically over the course of 2 hours!

As for easy side of the range vs shooting 2 hours later, i'd take the "hard" side of the range if it meant shooting at the same time as my rivals. Keeping in mind that at least we are experiencing the same rain/mirage/dust/wind/brightness/etc.

Lets give squadding a bit more time, as I for one enjoyed the way it worked at Lower Light. Maybe something can be learnt from SARA, as I'm sure they'd be happy to share.

[scott/r]

As a t/r shooter, I'd like to see the 300 kept and changing f/tr rules would just give us another disaplin that isn't shot anywhere else in the world again. Don't get me wrong, I like standard, it's where I started and it's an awesome place for a lot of people to start. But I was under the impression that all the hard work to get f/tr introduced into Australian shooting was so that we could shoot it internationally. To change the rules just for us would be a step backwards in my opinion.
I was pretty happy with the squadding over the weekend. But shooting in B grade, we did get to shoot pretty much at the same time over the whole week as we only had 15 shooters. In saying that, I think it would be a lot better if we rotated within our disaplin without the break in between f class and target rifle. A Change between them each day as to who goes first would be cool.

[budget]

okay guys here is my take on it.
yet again very disappointed in hearing f class shooters who think 300yds should go in favour of longer distances.
very selfish in my opinion!
this range I'm sure you may realise is a traditional distance that we have been shooting for eons.
For a T.R. shooter that enters a queens and lays down at 300,his / hers first range,the blood is pumping and nerves are at a high and his grouping ability is paramount.This short range is a great test first up for young and old shooters alike,controlling your nerves and heart rate to obtain the perfect hold are an altogether another skill.All of this is applicable for 300yds.
i will stand corrected here but in sure the above has little affect for a scope shooter when the only thing touching the rifle at times are your thumb and index finger.
come on guys this is a national competition,not an f class competition,we have two disciplines, we need to think of everybody fairly.
As far as destroying the target,you only need to have a removable bullseye on velcro.once the guts is shot out rip it out and replace it.its not that hard.
also i personally don't like squadding, all it does is segregate us yet again.
we have a great sport do we have to contiually have to change things.
regards paul.

[RDavies]

okay guys here is my take on it.
yet again very disappointed in hearing f class shooters who think 300yds should go in favour of longer distances.
very selfish in my opinion!
this range I'm sure you may realise is a traditional distance that we have been shooting for eons.
For a T.R. shooter that enters a queens and lays down at 300,his / hers first range,the blood is pumping and nerves are at a high and his grouping ability is paramount.This short range is a great test first up for young and old shooters alike,controlling your nerves and heart rate to obtain the perfect hold are an altogether another skill.All of this is applicable for 300yds.
i will stand corrected here but in sure the above has little affect for a scope shooter when the only thing touching the rifle at times are your thumb and index finger.
come on guys this is a national competition,not an f class competition,we have two disciplines, we need to think of everybody fairly.
As far as destroying the target,you only need to have a removable bullseye on velcro.once the guts is shot out rip it out and replace it.its not that hard.
also i personally don't like squadding, all it does is segregate us yet again.
we have a great sport do we have to contiually have to change things.
regards paul.

If it is about having an easy target to settle their nerves, is the 500yd target any more difficult to shoot a good score than the 300 with a bad hold?
At the Nationals it was not just the F class shooters I heard grumbling about the Nationals continuing with 300 when other Queens are moving on.

[johnk]

More to the point, it's shot at Bisley, Bloemfontein, Connaught & Trentham, it's shot in the Australia Match, It's shot in the Commonwealth Games. It's hard to drop while we shoot beside TR shooters.

[AlanF]

At the VRA Teams event in recent years, TR has been shooting 10 shots each at 300, 600, 700 and 900yds. At the same meeting, F-Class has been missing the 300, then doing 15 shots each at 600 and 700, then 10 at 900. Perhaps this sort of approach could be used elsewhere. Ironically, I believe the TR 300 will also be dropped this year.

[AlanF]

...As far as destroying the target,you only need to have a removable bullseye on velcro.once the guts is shot out rip it out and replace it.its not that hard.

Apparently its not that simple on ETs.

[johnk]

Close to it on the Hextas.

[jasmay]

Personally I think dropping 300 completely is the wrong way to go, especially as John made it aware it is shot at a lot of important events and its still shot at the USA nationals which we attend at times.

For that reason I suggested perhaps a mid range and long range championships would be the way to go instead of a lead up. That way you can attend what you prefer and everyone is happy.

I took up f-class in particular FTR (as did many others) due to the fact its quite relevant to the field shooting/hunting I do, that relevance means something to more than a few people, catering for everyone is important. The Mid/Long range split seems to work quite well in other countries.

[saum2]

Interesting point Jason, Where I shoot, a few SSAA members turn up on the day just to shoot long ranges. Anything past 600yds as locally the SSAA range only goes to 600yds hence the interest in the longs.

[AlanF]

Personally I prefer the Queens leadups to provide load testing at all Queens distances. And I believe most of those who want to keep the 300 think it requires some unique skills that should be part of the Queens. As usual in these discussions, there is a variety of personal views .