Cost of our sport

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argh
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:25 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Cost of our sport

#16 Postby argh » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:35 am

As a recent "returner" to the sport i don't necessarily agree that the costs are high. Whilst our local club fees are not as high as some, they are still in place to pay for the range facilities and state/national sports bodies. Its generally not much considering the land, clubhouse and target facilities that we need for our sport. 20 plus years ago i was paying $5 range fees (junior) and from memory ADI ammo was $15 for a shoot... wind forward and we sit at $15 and $28. (Hand loading aside) thats not much increase in 20 to 25 years.
gear is yes expensive if you want to be at the top of open, thats why we have F Standard to level the playing field. Omarks or better/modified sporting rifles can still be very competitive at relatively low cost.
question is what value do you put on your time? What value do you put on your relaxation?
i have a few grand in gear, spend $40 odd dollars a week to shoot, but the question in my house is not so much the financial cost, but how much time i spend away from family. The Nsw queens is $150 entry, and I'll use over $100 of ammo, but my daughters first gymnastic comp is on that Sunday back home so thats my biggest question on if i go or not......

Can you put a price on your enjoyment?

Adrian

BTW See you at the queens

AlanF
Posts: 7495
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Cost of our sport

#17 Postby AlanF » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:24 am

Tim L wrote:I can't say that I agree with the assertion that membership fees are high.
I pay $275 for my Club, State and National membership. That includes $80 to cover 10 weekend attendances. After 10 it's $8 a visit.

That's cheaper than the club membership at the local SSAA range and less than the annual fee for my sons soccer club membership.

What does concern me is the disparity in competition fees. Yes, I realise certain costs are set and can only be reduced by larger numbers turning up, which actually makes the NQRA Queens a little disappointing as that was shot on ET so no paid markers (and no number 3 badge for FTR :cry: ).

What's surprising is the club shoots are cheaper than the big comps :shock: Pretty sure they would have been 6-8/target where the biggies generally go 8-10.


This probably isn't the best way to do it, but I go to shoot bullets so:
On a per bullet basis (12 not 10)

OPMs
Clermont $1.04
Sarina/Mky $1.15
Townsville $1.25

NQRA Queens
Wilson $1.41
Queens $1.51

Nationals
Leadup $1.73
Champs $1.37

QRA
Duncan $1.11 trophy only
$1.60 Open
Queens $0.88 trophy only
$1.29 Open


Rosedale OPM $0.68 8)

Seriously, entry fees are in reality a small fraction of the total cost of competing, but high fees do annoy people enough to say bugger it, I'll go somewhere else instead. Same with food and drink prices. If you charge more than other OPMs for drinks and hot dogs, it gets noticed, and some won't come back next year, particularly if they have a bad shoot :lol: .

Gadget
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:40 pm
Location: Nowra
Contact:

Re: Cost of our sport

#18 Postby Gadget » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:52 am

Hi Cliff
How many of those are full NSWRA members that can (legally) attend OPM's and Queens Prizes across the country ???
Matt P


Hi Matt
We only have 14 members that chose to join with NSWRA at a cost of $2500 the rest are not interested.
I chose not to renew my NSWRA membership when diagnosed with chronic kidney failure, and yes I attended a prise shoot without membership, and I now know full well that I am not welcome to attend anymore.

The rest of our club wouldn't even know that the NSWRA exists, they have no desire to compete away from the club so why affiliate them all at a cost of $63,000

Graham Phillips
VP/Sec NRCi

Tim N
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:18 pm
Location: Branxton NSW

Re: Cost of our sport

#19 Postby Tim N » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:01 am

At the risk of stirring the pot :wink:
Seems Nowra are on the right track as a club to ensure their survival, a united voice is much stronger.
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

Caska
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:56 pm
Location: NSW

Re: Cost of our sport

#20 Postby Caska » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:59 pm

mattk83 wrote:The point I am trying to make is that there come a time and a place for change and I feel that time is now. We need to draw a line in the sand so to speak and make the hard decisions that will keep our sport alive for the next 50 years. I think that we need to address the fee structure across the board if this means a considerable drop in fee then so be it last time I checked an association having 1500 members paying $ 50 a year generates more fees than an association having 200 members paying $ 165 a year. The more members would mean more people at opm and queens and this can only be beneficial to the sport. If the sport cant get new members or even keep the members it has their is a very dark future ahead of us.

Cliff with regards to you comments I seem to recall a club early this year getting a warning as they had several F open shooter shooting at OPMs with out having the appropriate membership , that club may have even been from the south coast of NSW. At my club this would not happen [i]also seem to recall a number of shooters on the mound lately that had travelled considerable distance to shoot they did not seem to have the same level of confidence in your club that you have.

[/i]

May I ask what that means ?

Regards
Peter

mattk83
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: Cost of our sport

#21 Postby mattk83 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:00 am

In 10 years when the SSAA has taken over our ranges and we are find ourself shooting bench rest we will look back and think what could we have done to stop this , in 20 years time when TR and F class are nothing but a glory story told by the old blokes at the rsl i hope you look back and think we should have done sonething, we had the chance but did not step up we didnt want to rock the boat. This will be the end of our sport.

Norm
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:21 pm
Location: Gippsland, Victoria

Re: Cost of our sport

#22 Postby Norm » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:45 am

Gadget wrote:
Hi Cliff
How many of those are full NSWRA members that can (legally) attend OPM's and Queens Prizes across the country ???
Matt P


Hi Matt
We only have 14 members that chose to join with NSWRA at a cost of $2500 the rest are not interested.
I chose not to renew my NSWRA membership when diagnosed with chronic kidney failure, and yes I attended a prise shoot without membership, and I now know full well that I am not welcome to attend anymore.

The rest of our club wouldn't even know that the NSWRA exists, they have no desire to compete away from the club so why affiliate them all at a cost of $63,000

Graham Phillips
VP/Sec NRCi


Graham,
Where do you get $2500 from?
From what I see the NSWRA fees are not that expensive.
Down here in Gods Country we pay less than $300 in total including NRAA, VRA and Club fees. We don't pay a weekly range fee as its included in our annual club fees.
This is fair and reasonable for what we get back for our money and not out of the reach of the average shooter.
A member of the SSAA that attends the range on a regular basis would most likely spend more if they included membership and range fees.

AlanF
Posts: 7495
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Cost of our sport

#23 Postby AlanF » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:31 am

I'll tell you what I think is one of the major areas the sport could be improved - availability of good off-the-shelf rifles. There was a time when new Omarks were available and at that time they were a very competitive in TR. With the advent of F-Class, particularly F-Open, you must have a custom built rifle to be competitive, because there is simply nothing decent available off-the-shelf. Anyone who enters the sport must generally wait many months to get a decent new rifle, or buy second-hand, which simply doesn't appeal to many. How many other sports do you have so much trouble buying the basic equipment for?

What I would like to see is for a good rifle builder, or group of them, to manufacture and market a small selection of F-Class rifle models, perhaps with a choice between 2 or 3 stock designs, and for F-Open a choice of common chamberings. I can imagine a stock-maker, gunsmith, and importer forming a company to do this. You might find that some shooters, and some State Associations, might wish to invest in such a company. Imagine a situation where a new shooter could go online, and choose a new high quality F-Class rifle from a large selection available almost immediately. Now that would change the game, perhaps even turn things right around. It would be somewhat of a gamble for the manufacturer, but if done well I reckon it would succeed spectacularly, and at the same time rescue our sport.

Gadget
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:40 pm
Location: Nowra
Contact:

Re: Cost of our sport

#24 Postby Gadget » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:59 am

Hi Norm
14 members of the NSWRA as set out below
Full $167, pension $157, ATR $40
Fee ATR Total
157 40 197
167 167
167 167
157 40 197
157 40 197
167 167
157 40 197
167 167
167 167
157 40 197
157 157
157 157
157 40 197
167 167
2258 240 2498

Matt P
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: Cost of our sport

#25 Postby Matt P » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:03 pm

AlanF wrote:I'll tell you what I think is one of the major areas the sport could be improved - availability of good off-the-shelf rifles. There was a time when new Omarks were available and at that time they were a very competitive in TR. With the advent of F-Class, particularly F-Open, you must have a custom built rifle to be competitive, because there is simply nothing decent available off-the-shelf. Anyone who enters the sport must generally wait many months to get a decent new rifle, or buy second-hand, which simply doesn't appeal to many. How many other sports do you have so much trouble buying the basic equipment for?

What I would like to see is for a good rifle builder, or group of them, to manufacture and market a small selection of F-Class rifle models, perhaps with a choice between 2 or 3 stock designs, and for F-Open a choice of common chamberings. I can imagine a stock-maker, gunsmith, and importer forming a company to do this. You might find that some shooters, and some State Associations, might wish to invest in such a company. Imagine a situation where a new shooter could go online, and choose a new high quality F-Class rifle from a large selection available almost immediately. Now that would change the game, perhaps even turn things right around. It would be somewhat of a gamble for the manufacturer, but if done well I reckon it would succeed spectacularly, and at the same time rescue our sport.

Alan
It sounds like a good idea but unfortunatley not very practical, I had a plan at one stage to have stocks and barreled actions on the shelf ready to go but I never get to a point where I have the time to do it, there's always booked work waiting to be completed.
Matt Paroz

Matt P
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: Cost of our sport

#26 Postby Matt P » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:08 pm

Gadget wrote:
Hi Cliff
How many of those are full NSWRA members that can (legally) attend OPM's and Queens Prizes across the country ???
Matt P


Hi Matt
We only have 14 members that chose to join with NSWRA at a cost of $2500 the rest are not interested.
I chose not to renew my NSWRA membership when diagnosed with chronic kidney failure, and yes I attended a prise shoot without membership, and I now know full well that I am not welcome to attend anymore.

The rest of our club wouldn't even know that the NSWRA exists, they have no desire to compete away from the club so why affiliate them all at a cost of $63,000

Graham Phillips
VP/Sec NRCi

Hi Graham
Looking at it from another point of view, if all those non NSWRA member were to join that would be another $63000 in the NSWRA kitty which could bring down the fee's. I'm not saying that should happen just another point of view.
Regards
Matt P

Gadget
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:40 pm
Location: Nowra
Contact:

Re: Cost of our sport

#27 Postby Gadget » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:40 pm

Hi Matt
I accept your point of view, but what would me paying the NSWRA $63k get for Nowra and its members other than an empty bank account.

In the last Financial year I spent over $40k on the range and this year I'll spend another $40k on upgrading and improving infrastructure at Nowra, that monie came from members and has been put back into their range, not gone to NSWRA General Revenue for them to do WHAT with, certainly NOT improve the life of Nowra Rifle Club Members.

On this issue I think we have to have our own opinions, as a stand alone club Nowra is run as a business not a franchise.

Graham Phillips
VP/Sec NRCi

Steve N
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 8:16 pm
Location: Gippsland Victoria.

Re: Cost of our sport

#28 Postby Steve N » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:51 pm

AlanF wrote:I'll tell you what I think is one of the major areas the sport could be improved - availability of good off-the-shelf rifles. There was a time when new Omarks were available and at that time they were a very competitive in TR. With the advent of F-Class, particularly F-Open, you must have a custom built rifle to be competitive, because there is simply nothing decent available off-the-shelf. Anyone who enters the sport must generally wait many months to get a decent new rifle, or buy second-hand, which simply doesn't appeal to many. How many other sports do you have so much trouble buying the basic equipment for?

What I would like to see is for a good rifle builder, or group of them, to manufacture and market a small selection of F-Class rifle models, perhaps with a choice between 2 or 3 stock designs, and for F-Open a choice of common chamberings. I can imagine a stock-maker, gunsmith, and importer forming a company to do this. You might find that some shooters, and some State Associations, might wish to invest in such a company. Imagine a situation where a new shooter could go online, and choose a new high quality F-Class rifle from a large selection available almost immediately. Now that would change the game, perhaps even turn things right around. It would be somewhat of a gamble for the manufacturer, but if done well I reckon it would succeed spectacularly, and at the same time rescue our sport.

Good suggestion Alan. A new shooter usually has no idea who they can even approach to get a rifle built or rechambered etc. I found it very frustrating even trying so get a suitable stock. I would hate to think how much time and money I wasted in the past two years trying to get a rifle up and running from factory rifles with modifications done as I went. Twelve months waiting time for a new rifle is a long time to wait when you are trying to get into the sport.
Steve

Tim N
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:18 pm
Location: Branxton NSW

Re: Cost of our sport

#29 Postby Tim N » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:14 pm

Hi All,
Off the shelf rifles would be a very "hit and miss" affair I feel, particularly for FOpen being the formula one as it is very personalised what most bring to the mound, not to mention the choice of calibers.
Possibly F standard and FTR could be catered for but risky.
Lead time from your chosen gunsmith is one thing but availability of components seems to be the biggest hold up.
On the up side it's good way to learn patience.
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

Norm
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:21 pm
Location: Gippsland, Victoria

Re: Cost of our sport

#30 Postby Norm » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:17 pm

Gadget wrote:Hi Norm
14 members of the NSWRA as set out below
Full $167, pension $157, ATR $40
Fee ATR Total
157 40 197
167 167
167 167
157 40 197
157 40 197
167 167
157 40 197
167 167
167 167
157 40 197
157 157
157 157
157 40 197
167 167
2258 240 2498


Ok so similar to down here.
I guess it just depends on where your interest is. If you have no interest in competing at places other than your own local club then I see your point. Otherwise its not an huge expense in the overall cost of travelling to compete.


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