F Class no longer a "Queens "

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bsouthernau
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#46 Postby bsouthernau » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:35 pm

Seddo wrote:Does this mean we will start running FC State titles in its own right? ie no TR events?


I hope not. As you pointed out earlier this morning - we are too divided already.

AlanF
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#47 Postby AlanF » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:39 pm

This apparent error in judgement is not a problem brought about by TR shooters as a group. For all we know, the NRAA Board members who voted for it could be F-Class shooters. I trust most TR shooters will think its a bad decision also. They know as we do that we will all be worse off if F-Class breaks away.

Rather than talk about it here, I think the best avenue of protest is as usual via our own S & T Associations. I'm going to wait a few days to see if we get any more information, or to see if the Board might indicate a willingness to review their decision, and if not will put in a strong protest to the VRA Council, asking them to pressure the Board to give some credible justification for their stance.

Seddo
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#48 Postby Seddo » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:08 pm

If they are run separately it will hurt clubs as they will have to do twice the amount of work to cater for the same number of shooters.
----------------------
Seddo

Moe City Rifle Club

bsouthernau
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#49 Postby bsouthernau » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:11 pm

AlanF wrote:I'm going to wait a few days to see if we get any more information, or to see if the Board might indicate a willingness to review their decision, and if not will put in a strong protest to the VRA Council, asking them to pressure the Board to give some credible justification for their stance.


Interesting that all we got from the VRA was a bald statement along the lines of "the NRAA has asked us to do this and we have". Full stop. I don't for a moment think that the VRA Council is anti F Class as I can think of five councillors who are F Class shooters and at least two of them are members of this forum. I'd consider it inappropriate for them to air internal matters here so I'll be like you - wait for a bit and then raise it with them privately.

Barry

Matt P
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#50 Postby Matt P » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:50 pm

This will will have been instigated by a Member who is very anti F Class, and unfortunately it seems the the other Members have gone along with it. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Matt P

DannyS
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#51 Postby DannyS » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:13 pm

Matt, I hope not. All classes need to stick together. I enjoy the mix we have. However, I do ask the question, has the NRAA asked for F Classes to be approved as Queens Prizes ? When were TR approved ? How many years ago ?

Does the Queen really care what and how we shoot? As long as it is under the control of the NRAA or any other Commonwealth member.

Cheers
Danny
You might as well be yourself, everyone else is already taken.

Matt P
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#52 Postby Matt P » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:13 pm

Danny
NSW have always had F Class as a concurrent championship (not a Queens, but I still call it the Queens ), I'm not all that fussed either way but do have a problem in with the way some things are done, such as this.
Matt P

GrahamW
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#53 Postby GrahamW » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:44 am

Aubrey wrote:Not trying to start an argument...but...

If the original Queens was based on target rifle as it was then (100+ odd years ago)...and if that logic is being applied to exclude F class because of the difference in equipment, stye of shooting etc...then equally current TR would not be eligible - TR does not shoot Bisley style, our rifles are not semi modified service rifles, we use diopter lenses, we custom load our ammo etc etc etc. A modern TR rifle is very different from the originals!

This pretext of what was "originally" a Queens classification does not really stand up to any logical or rational scrutiny.

Having said that - I love the tradition of a Queens being the pinnacle of friendly and ethical competition with all categories of approved equipment (TR, F Class, Optical, Service, Field etc).

I strongly believe we should preserve the tradition for all shooters, not just one discipline.


Totally agree Aubrey. 8-)

AlanF wrote:"Are you going to the Queens?" vs "Are you going to the Governor General's?". Sorry it just wouldn't stack up. And I think its mainly the tradition more than anything. I believe the QRA had their first Queens Prize event more than 130 years ago. Its not a matter of being staunch monarchists, in the same way as you don't need to be Christian to celebrate Christmas. It has become part of the culture. How would we feel about changing the name of Christmas to Governor General's Holiday?


Mmm.. Have a merry GGH... nah just doesn't work. 8-/

Personally I love the history of it all and would hate to lose it because of some pigheaded, misguided, TR board member.
It seems obvious that GB has no distinction between TR & FC, so why is it that our governing body feels it necessary to make such a distinction?

I've always been a strong advocate to respecting TR tradition and avoid making waves, work with them to benefit the sport as a whole.
BUT, if they see fit to do this it seems things are run by a minority because most TR shooters I know certainly wouldn't go along with this.

AND if that's the case maybe it is time to form our own governing body.

Though there's a hell of a lot to consider to do this, such as range facilities, insurance etc. not to mention the impact on small clubs and how a division like this would affect them.
Surely it would make more sense to attend AGMs and nominate/vote new board members with a better understanding of the effects of these narrow minded decisions.

[end rant]
8-)

Tim L
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#54 Postby Tim L » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:30 am

bobped wrote:Normally I don't comment on these pages, but an explanation may be in order.
The right to use the name "Queens Prize" was granted to each state through Royal Patronage which had to be applied for by each state through the NRA of Great Britain. The right to use the name "Queens Prize" was granted many years ago for TARGET RIFLE Competitions held by each State. Note - it was granted for TARGET RIFLE only.
What the NRAA is worried about is that if we start calling every discipline a "Queens Prize" the NRA of Great Britain will get very miffed and withdraw the right to call anything a Queens Prize. Therefore we have asked State Associations not to call their F Class winners "Queens Winners"
If you don't think that might happen then you don't know the Poms. They protect their rights and privileges very jealously and would be quite capable of withdrawing the right completely. That's what we are worried about.
The NRAA is working to try and give F Class more recognition.
One way we are doing is as follows.
We have asked the Governor General to become the Patron of the Association. Throughout our history the Governor General has always been the Patron. The last one before Cosgrove refused.
Cosgrove has been asked and firstly had a few questions to ask us. He was a little suspicious that we may be a "political" organisation but we have re-assured him on this and expect him to accept in a couple of months.
We'll give that time to settle down and then approach him asking for permission to call F Class competitions held alongside Queens Competitions the "Governor General's Competition" and the badges Governor Generals Badges. That will apply to all State Queens competitions.
I'm not holding my breath but those are the plans. In the meantime the NRAA has included the MACE CUP at the end of the NRAA Queens. The Mace Cup is the equivalent of the Kaltenberg Cup.
http://www.nraa.com.au/mace-cup-f-class ... eens-2015/

Regards
BP

Bob, I don't know who is saying what or why, but if the NRAA has royal patronage then it is by the Sovereign of Australia, not the Sovereign of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Same person, different Title, different Seal, different Coat of Arms.
If the "right" was given, it was given by the Crown and once done, miffed or not, there is SFA that NRA UK can do about it.
Someone, at the very least, is scaremongering.

scott/r
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#55 Postby scott/r » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:29 am

As a new shooter to full bore, I'm having a bit of a problem with all of us having a big wing about each other's class, at our own expense. From the eyes of someone who started shooting f standard 12 months ago and switched over to target rifle about 4 months ago, all this talk about them and us is quite concerning. And as someone said earlier, I'm not trying to start an argument by any means, I found the " them and us" mentality a lot more in f/class. Maybe because there is three different classes of f/class, (f open, f standard and now f/tr) that it is something that we do every weekend without even realising. Look at the front page of this forum to start with.
Rules & the Future of F-Class
For general discussion about the rules of OUR sport.
And then further down
Full-bore/Target Rifle
If you shoot full-bore, then you're welcome to use this forum to discuss YOUR sport.
Now, please don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at anyone, especially this forum, I just find it a sad day when we can't all play together. Including all of us shooting under the queen's banner.

higginsdj
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#56 Postby higginsdj » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:32 am

I don't know why people get so heated up over disagreements. It's just human nature to complain. For example, we have our bench shooters shoot on one target as it makes it easier to set up benches etc but put a shooter on 'their' target who shoots prone (F Class) and we get complaints - most are accepting but not all!

Remember there are a few thousand shooters out there across all disciplines - what is the % representation on this forum!?! (This forum has ~930 members and not all are 'local'). The forum allows for (relatively) free exchange of opinions and ideas. Although one could conclude that there is discourse out there - it doesn't actually exist in practise (outside politics - and there will always be those who want to play politics for whatever reason).

AlanF
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#57 Postby AlanF » Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:30 pm

scott/r wrote:As a new shooter to full bore, I'm having a bit of a problem with all of us having a big wing about each other's class, at our own expense. From the eyes of someone who started shooting f standard 12 months ago and switched over to target rifle about 4 months ago, all this talk about them and us is quite concerning. And as someone said earlier, I'm not trying to start an argument by any means, I found the " them and us" mentality a lot more in f/class. Maybe because there is three different classes of f/class, (f open, f standard and now f/tr) that it is something that we do every weekend without even realising. Look at the front page of this forum to start with.
Rules & the Future of F-Class
For general discussion about the rules of OUR sport.
And then further down
Full-bore/Target Rifle
If you shoot full-bore, then you're welcome to use this forum to discuss YOUR sport.
Now, please don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at anyone, especially this forum, I just find it a sad day when we can't all play together. Including all of us shooting under the queen's banner.

Scott,

I wouldn't worry too much about the YOUR in the sentence you mentioned above. I wrote that about 8 years ago when deciding to include TR in what had been created as an F-Class forum 18 months earlier. I would prefer that you highlighted the WELCOME in the same sentence. As website owner I have always tried to encourage a good relationship between the disciplines, both scoped and iron-sights, because it is in all of our best interests to do so. You'll find only a small minority of both scope and iron sight shooters who don't see it that way.

Alan

DenisA
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#58 Postby DenisA » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:46 pm

Back in the day that these competitions were given the Queens title, I'm assuming that TR rifle was the ONLY form of "Fullbore". So essentially the Queens title was given to Fullbore. The part that I can't digest is that Fullbore has evolved with time as most things do and there are a few disciplines now, however, we are still all Fullbore discplines. We all shoot under the International Confederation of Fullbore Rifle Association rules.

In my opinion, that should qualify us for the same accolades as T/R shooters....... within reason, and the Queens title is within reason.

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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#59 Postby DannyS » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:25 am

Well said Denis.

Cheers
Danny
You might as well be yourself, everyone else is already taken.

Peter L
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Re: F Class no longer a "Queens "

#60 Postby Peter L » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:16 am

Grant G wrote:I too don't often comment on such decisions , but wonder as , Alan to the actual motives behind the decision. In the past I have felt we should remain with the TR community but now wonder if this is the opportunity for F Class to have our own separately run State Championships where we are not putting up with the TR community looking down on us or subsidising their prize pool.
I & I feel the vast majority of F Class shooters don't shoot for prize money, but the allocation of prizes is disproportionate relative to class entries .
It does seem the more we go along & tolerate , the more they want to influence the F Class discipline.

Grant


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