I'll be gone soon

[bjld]

Alan deleted a post of mine yesterday and an entire thread today.

I just made a comment that one gunsmith I have talked to was unpleasant. Alan said I was being too critical. I could have called the person in question a grumpy f**k wit, but I said unpleasant.

Why does this forum need to be sterilised?

I sent Alan a PM to make it clear in no uncertain terms how I felt. It was a private message so he can shove my profanity any where he likes.

I look forward to being banned from this site. It'll be the first time it's happened.

Regards
Ben

[bjld]

To be honest, I've just had a couple of crap days at my new job and I wanted to start an interesting thread.
OH&S is coming to inspect the laboratory I've just taken over. One of the things I really don't have time to do before they come is to print a warning label for every single bottle with liquid in it... including a lot of bottles of analytical grade water (>99.99% purity).
The PC makes the labels for you (eventually), based on what you tell it is in the liquid. The part that really pissed me off is that because water is harmless (surprise surprise), it's warning labels come out blank. So I've just stuck blank labels on a bunch of bottles.
At least the next time I pick up a bottle of pure water I can reassure myself (if I've forgotten) that it is harmless by carefully studying the blank label...

Society is trying so hard to protect us from possible harm that it is incrementally costing us our freedom.

A forum is a public place for OPEN discussion.
If you only say nice things you're only telling half the truth.
Ipso facto the other half must be lies.

I just said someone was unpleasant to deal with. That's right - the word I used was "unpleasant". That was my experience and that of many others. This web site is clearly not the place for OPEN discussion about that experience.

Regards
Ben

[Tony Q]

How 'unpleasent' for you Ben

Ooops .. i said the 'U' word.

I must admit i dont understand, jeez .. some people have called me worse
things than that on this forum ... and they are still here.

I saw the post you refer to and all i can say is .. 'whats the problem with what you said?????'

Maybe you should have used a phrase like 'Reversed Pleasantries'

[AlanF]

Okay Ben - you recommended that a certain gunsmith be avoided because you found him unpleasant. What gives you the right to make that judgement then announce it publicly? And if we let that go, where then do we draw the line? Most gunsmiths are small businesses which rely on the goodwill of shooters for their livelihood. I'm not sure you realise what that means. So I make no apology for deleting your posts. If you have a need to destroy people's reputations, its not going to be done on this website.

Alan

[RAVEN]

When U run a small business you rely on word of mouth and if I was unpleasant to my customers or even worse a potential new customer I probably would not be in business long.
BTW Ben it was more like 2.5yrs how unpleasant

[bjld]

The thread that was deleted was an honest attempt to start an interesting discussion about the relative merits of gunsmiths around the country.
I described my dealings with four of them, of which three were favourable but one was "unpleasant", and I'd heard similarly from others about this particular gunsmith. I mentioned a fifth, with whom I had no personal dealings, but who took two and a half years to build a rifle for Raven, whom I do know personally. That is insufferable in my opinion, rather than unpleasant.

I found the deletion of this thread outrageous (geez, that's strong language for a public forum)!

Because they are deemed unsuitable for the public forum, I'm disappointed that people are unable to judge my original postings. There was nothing in them that you wouldn't say in the clubrooms on a Saturday afternoon and nothing more profane than "unpleasant".

Regards
Ben

PS Why doesn't someone else try and start a thread about gunsmiths?

[AlanF]

Ben,

Its okay for someone to start a thread about gunsmiths, and recommend gunsmiths who have done a good job. However if you want to name them and bag them at the same time, then go and start you own forum (and see where it gets you).

Alan

[John E]

Ben,
I'm not taking sides in this, but I saw your post, and my first thought on reading it was that you could be leaving yourself open to some form of legal redress ( if that is the right word ). My impression of what you said was that it might discourage someone from dealing with that person, which would have an adverse impact on his business, and that may be sufficient grounds to take action --- we have seen similar instances of legal action or threatened legal action in the past, so we know it happens, and I don't blame Allan for being cautious.
It is one thing for us to poke a bit of muck at one another on this site, and even then some of us can get a bit touchy, but it is quite another thing to make what might be construed as derogatory comments about someone outside the group. I just thought that it was unwise.
John

PS --- I find Robert Tobler and Mark Sewell very competent and easy to deal with.

[daj]

Alan and John,

Being mature boys and girls, I am sure we all recognise a subjective criticism when we see one. Saying something doesn't necessarily make it so, but the credibility of the critic is put on the line every bit as much as that of the person being criticised.

I personally appreciated Ben's candour and took it in the vein in which it was offered because I'm old enough to know what might be unpleasant to Ben could well be a barrel of laughs to me. Anyway, who cares if the guy is a grumpy old f*rt or not if he does good work, at a fair price and in a timely fashion? Not I.

The upside of Ben's openness is that anyone who thinks otherwise can easily refute what he says. If no one does, then maybe Mr Grumpy needs to work on his customer relations. (BTW I have no idea who this person is.)

Alan, I know you are trying to be fair to a small business but you need to be fair to the forum members as well and treat us as adults. We can cope with personal opinions being expressed without the need for censorship.

Regarding legalities, do you really think a gunsmith would take action against shooters? I don't think so.

Regards,
David

[John E]

David,
I was pointing out that sometimes we need to exercise some discretion in what we say and do, even if we think we are in the right. I know of two examples of a person being sued for something that was said, and a few weeks ago, I was speaking to a person who had recently won a settlement, and his words to me were " they didn't know who they were dealing with, I spend $200,000 per year on litigation", and I believe him, because I have heard stories about him from people who have done business with him. The fact is that you just don't know when you are going to run foul of a person like that, and perhaps that is what prompted me to think that Ben should have been a bit more careful. I'm not criticising what he said, or his right to say it, I just think there could have been a risk attached to saying it in print.
John

[Sam Walker]

In ten years of internet use I have been part of a few other forums and am still an active member of one of them. I haven't seen any other forum where the moderator is so militant !

I had cause to bitch about a mail order business on another forum, so I consulted the moderator to see if he would have a problem with it. The reply came back that it was OK as long as I didn't get into any slander or abuse and had tried to resolve the matter with them.

Several people had similiar bad experiences and I emailed the business to let them know that I was publicising their bad service on the WWW and that quite a few people had let me know they had bad service from the business also.

They never bothered to reply, or even threaten to sue.
It is my personal opinion that AlanF is being a little paranoid about what can and can't be said on an internet forum and the forum will suffer for it.
Fortunately the internet is a big place. If this forum dies out, another may spring up !

Haven't you ever heard of a disclaimer AlanF ??

Sam

[AlanF]

Sam,

Perhaps it does put people some people off if the moderation appears to get heavy-handed. But I think you're missing the point if you think that the threat of legal action is the only consideration. This site was created to help the sport of F-Class shooting, and an important part of that is to show respect for others, and to try to gain respect for shooting from the general public. It was certainly never intended to provide entertainment in the form of heated arguments, or opportunities to settle grudges. So if people who want the forum to allow that sort of rubbish decide to leave and go to other forums, then good luck to them. I'd rather have a small forum of members with some self-control. Shooting in Australia has enough of an uphill battle as it is without the sort of bad publicity that you would like to see allowed.

Thanks Raven and John Eland for your support on this. I'd have hoped that more would be prepared to say something - or does everyone else want less moderation, constant fighting, name-calling, and who cares what the public thinks?

And yes I have heard of a disclaimer Sam - you might remember seeing it when you first registered?

Alan

[Cochran]

I think it comes down to what kind of forum the membership wants. No matter how hard a moderator tries, if the members are constantly going after each other or vendors, the forum will suffer. I look at quite a few forums and many I wont participate in.
There are those that say they dont allow any criticism of vendors. Yet if someone bashes a big faceless vendor like Remington, for some reason thats ok. Thats just hipocracy.
There are those that claim they allow criticism because people have the right to know. Yet if you criticize one of thier favorites, they unleash the hellhounds on you.
There are those were anything goes. They are usually just a bunch of rednecks going at it. These are the ones you look at strictly to see a train wreck. They are fun to look at but there is no valuable dicussion and no real shooters would waste thier time trying to share thier knowledge.

Then there are those where international shooters come together to share thier knowledge and experiances to better the shooting sports. Vendors as well as good shooters will join in because they feel welcome. You feel like part of the group . If someone is about to use a certain vendor that you've had bad experiances with. You simply send them a PM and let them know what experiances you've had. If you're not sure about a certain vendor, you send some of the good shooters on the forum a PM and ask for advice.

There was one case recently where a guy was bashing a vendor. He only hurt himself because other vendors saw his post and told him in no uncertain terms that his business was not welcome with them either.

Jeff

[Guest]

Alan,
We agree with what you say. There is no need for some of the nastiness we have seen at times. Disagree by all means, that fosters healthy discussion, but do it as the gentlemen ( and women) we are supposed to be. Lets put ourselves above the A------S we see on other forums so that when we meet on a rifle range somewhere we don't have to look in another direction.
Barry and Adam.

[RAVEN]

There was one case recently where a guy was bashing a vendor. He only hurt himself because other vendors saw his post and told him in no uncertain terms that his business was not welcome with them either.
Jeff

Good advice Jeff
What goes around will come around
Cheers
RB