state associations.

[bruce moulds]

recent comments regarding the dissemination of information re marking raise this issue.
it seems that some people were not informed of the new system, and other people consider that s.a. let the cat out of the bag too soon.
info regarding these changes was on the safclass website for some time. obviously the s.a.fclass assn was informed of changes, probably, but not necessarily by by sara, and did their job of informing s.a. fclass shooters asap.
this is what an fclass assn is all about. our assn obviously has developed lines of communication for the benefit of its members.
sara also notified clubs of the new system and secretaries passed that on to members.
please don't blame s.a. for problems, but consider improving lines of communication in your area.
try forming state bodies which work positively with governing bodies, as opposed to just making rash demands, and rewards are there to be had.
it is not the responsibility of this site to inform shooters of new things that their own state bodies should do, through whatever system they choose.
i am not on the executive of safclass, but am a member, and i thank them for doing their job.
perhaps more people would know more things if they put in the effort and created an assn like s.a. has.
bruce moulds

[Lynn Otto]

I have commented on this on the other thread Bruce, I received the information about all three changes both by email and was also notified of the postings on the FCASA site. I certainly appreciated the prompt availability of the information being disseminated from SARA.

[M12LRPV]

I put it in brackets in the other post because I didn't know. I wasn't intending to be critical of SA Association.

I think we're all very aware that SA is very active/proactive in keeping up with what's going on. That is no doubt attributable to well established lines of communication existing between the SA association and the information sources. So it's not unreasonable to hold the opinion that SA has information that is completely current or even ahead of it's time.

Now I can see that you feel hurt that the SA assn is being blamed (for what I don't know) but I don't think your complaint is necessary.

To blame the individual who is starved for information and powerless to do anything about it then suggest that they should form a state association and reap the rewards is denying the fact that the state bodies aren't communicating anyway so what will forming an association achieve?


The problem is that many people believe that all information MUST go through some defined channels for dissemination and only through those channels. That is the ultimate mistake because it relies on every link in that chain working. One failure at any level and it all comes unravelling. If someone wants to know something they are expected to start from the bottom up. Heaven forbid they try and bypass the information chain and head to the source...

The information should be able to be disseminated to everyone at once no matter who they are or how far down the chain they are or whether they're part of this clique or that.

The solution is not the formation of more bodies and thus more potential failure points in the dissemination of information. The solution is in breaking that ridiculous and archaic structure down and making information available to those that need to know it.

Now Geoff and Bob are working on it and hats off to them. The last thing I would want to see is them thinking that this is all going to turn into an argument and then back away from it.

[Lynn Otto]

I put it in brackets in the other post because I didn't know. I wasn't intending to be critical of SA Association.

Oops, I did not intend my post to be critical, I simply wanted to point out that our information had in fact come through the appropriate channels. I'm sure Bruce did not intend to offend either, I believe he was just re-iterating that we currently have a good system that appears to work well that others may find useful as a model.

Let's hope the information flow improves for everyone, it is much easier to take ownership and feel pride in our sport when it works well for all concerned and we can all feel involved in the processes.

[M12LRPV]

Mutual apologies all round I suppose

I will say that I am actually feeling very positive about what's been happening recently with F-Class in Australia.

It's just little things here and there but I do see a lot more openness happening and that's a great thing but it does put a greater demand on those who supply the information.

Where there is a history of no information people don't complain when they don't hear things because it's just business as usual.

However once a good flow of information is established, people will complain at every hiccup because now they notice whereas in the past they didn't.

I only hope that those taking on the task can keep up with it and not get snowed under.

[bruce moulds]

m12,
what lynn said.
we also must be mindful that many people doing stuff are volunteers, and without them it would cost a lot of money. they must be allowed to have a life outside of fclass.
however it is obvious that our assn is not a clique, and does not work in that manner.
we have spent time and effort building channels and trust, and now reap the rewards.
incidentally, your club website is of exceptional quality. a lot of thought and work is obvious, particularly in the important area of newcomers.
i too feel that overall things are looking up for fclass in oz. as long as governments leave us alone, we seem to be moving in the right direction for a good future.
bruce moulds.

[M12LRPV]

m12,
what lynn said.
we also must be mindful that many people doing stuff are volunteers, and without them it would cost a lot of money. they must be allowed to have a life outside of fclass.
however it is obvious that our assn is not a clique, and does not work in that manner.
we have spent time and effort building channels and trust, and now reap the rewards.
incidentally, your club website is of exceptional quality. a lot of thought and work is obvious, particularly in the important area of newcomers.
i too feel that overall things are looking up for fclass in oz. as long as governments leave us alone, we seem to be moving in the right direction for a good future.
bruce moulds.

A lot of what I said was general and not directed at the SA association but more at some of the attitudes that still prevail here and there around the traps.

I'm quite aware that it's volunteers doing stuff and how much people put in behind the scenes because I know how much time I put into the website and the writing the scoring system we use to manage all of our club competitions

A lot of very good planning and solid hard work early in the piece has allowed me to relax from those duties and concentrate on my shooting. That's because the website was written to be static and not require constant maintenance and the scoring system is enter scores and click button and it's all calculated and published.

I'm actually at a stage where I have too much spare time on my hands now (it probably shows in my posts ).

[bobped]

There are lots and lots of comments I'd like to make, so this will probably be a bit long.
One of the things I want to do within the NRAA is to publicise more and more what the NRAA is about, what we can and can't do, and let people know what we are doing and deciding in a much more timely manner.

At the February NRAA Board Meeting, quite a number of things happened. I can only deal with the things that come within my portfolio of "Rules", and the following matters came under the Rules Portfolio.

1. ICFRA Targets and the modified ICFRA Scoring System were approved. This was agreed at the Annual Workshop of all States back in November, but it had to wait until the NRAA Board Meeting in February as only a Director's meeting can approve or change rules. After the February Meeting, I drafted the Rule Changes and sent a copy to all State Associations and asked them to publicise them on their web sites and send a copy to all their members. So far it appears that NSW, QLD, SARA, and WA have put references on their web sites. I don't know which States have forwarded them directly to their members, but from the sound of what Lynn says, SARA has, so they weren't jumping the gun, they were doing the right thing. The NRAA also put it on the Web site here:- http://www.nraa.com.au/pubs/ICFRA_marking-scoring.pdf

2. F Standard Grading System. Once again, this had been approved at the Members Meeting in November. I drafted the rules and did the same as I outlined above in Point 1. The NRAA put it here:- http://www.nraa.com.au/pubs/F-StandardGradingRules.pdf

3. F Open Target and Scoring Changes. Ditto as per above. Its on the NRAA Web site here:- http://www.nraa.com.au/pubs/F-OpenRemoveTargets.pdf

The Notice about the adoption of the Modified ICFRA targets and Scoring was late in getting to the NRAA Web site, because I emailed it to the Web Master (Geoff Roberts) on the day he was departing for Tassie. It had however been emailed to all State Associations.


There are two other major things occurring within my portfolio.

(a) Electronic Targets - National Committee. I have written to all State and Territory Associations, inviting them to nominate members for a National Committee which will consider all things related to the adoption, regulation, specifications and desirable outcomes for electronic targets. I hope that the committee will be able to meet in person to conduct workshops and invite E-Target suppliers to contribute. Look out for it in any news from your State Association.

(b) I've been given the task of forming a National Committee from all States to consider alternative methods of Grading for Target Rifle. We all know (Target Shooters at least do) that the present TR Grading system is broken, and needs revising. I haven't had a chance to write to States yet, but look out for it when it happens.

Let other people know about the things that are happening.

If you haven't got copies of the stuff I mentioned above, encourage your State Association to email news directly to their members. We need to adopt 21st Century methods of communication, and waiting for The National Magazine, or non-existent communications from your Sate Associations takes far too long.

Cheers
Bob Pedersen

[bobped]

I told you it would be a bit long, so there's more.

Bruce. The ICFRA Targets and Scoring System. - I didn't invent it, and I also had reservations when I first saw it. I, and lots of other shooters have now experienced it during three or four major meetings, and I can honestly say that there has been almost no criticism after the first 5 minutes when a shooter is getting used to it.
Scorers are required by SSR's to spot the targets with a scope or binoculars when they are scoring. I would be very, very peeved of if I had a scorer who was not doing so for me, and simply relying on his open eyesight.
The alternating spotter colour of White, Red, White, Red makes it very obvious, as well as the placement of the scoring disc. The 4 places across the bottom of the target does not cause a problem. It works! It also makes marking much faster. I got 10 shots up there at 1000yds in 3 minutes yesterday, which helped me tremendously.
Besides that, I seem to remember that F Open used to have, amongst other things, 4 places along the bottom for scoring as well.

One thing I think we as F Class Shooters need to remember is that we are fitting in with a whole lot of Target Shooters, who have rights and opinions as well. We need to co-exist and respect each others rights and feelings. The alternative is that we form a completely different association and go and find some other ranges to shoot on.

Expectations About the NRAA:- John K. I know you were disappointed about the Match Rifle reporting, and somehow thought that the NRAA would arrange a full and complete reporting of the Match Rifle results.
The NRAA would be surprised that you expected that, as they don't see it as their job. (At least not at the moment, or so far). Probably then, it would come down to the State Association running the event to publicise such results. In the case of Tasmania, we don't even have a phone at the Campbell Town Range, much less Internet access. It was only through the volunteer services of Geoff Roberts, who came to Tassie, that we were able to get the Tassie Queens results up on the net, through Geoff's mobile Telstra Dongle.

The NRAA simply doesn't have the resources. There is one full time EO, who I can attest is absolutely flat out. There are 5 Directors, all unpaid, and who have lots of other things to do. There is nothing else. The web site is run on an entirely voluntary basis by Geoff Roberts, using his own computers. A major, major, job for me will be getting the SSR's up to date, by integrating all the small and large rule changes that have happened and are also to come.
That job will consist of me, getting hold of a PDF editor, learning how to use it and then rewriting all the parts of the book that need it. I'd love to pay someone to do it, but do you want to pay more fees?

Communications to the Shooting Movement.
I would love to be able to do things like send all the recent rule change stuff directly to all the shooters around Australia, but I can't. It would be nice, once the Electronic SSR's are re-written to be able to email a copy directly to everyone, but I can't.

The NRAA does not have a database of who all the individual shooting members of the NRAA are. The States do, but we don't.

There are negotiations about to start with the States to try and get a National database. We have great hopes, but don't hold your breath. Talk to your State Councillors instead and encourage them to help establish a National Database.

I want to at least establish a National F Standard Grading System, but it will be a bit hard to do if we don't even know who the shooters are. One thing I'd like to know is the percentage of F Class Shooters out the in ordinary Rifle Clubs, but I doubt if even the States know that, much less the NRAA.

I'm not saying all this to have a moan about it. I knew it when I took on the job. I'm saying it because I think people need to understand more about the structure and resources and limitations of the NRAA.

When you join the SSAA, you join the National Association and pay your fees direct to them. The SSAA National Association has the money, and information and much more power to do things.

When you join the NRAA you join a State Association, who in turn affiliate loosely with the NRAA. The NRAA only has 9 members. Those members are each of the affiliated States and Territories. Most of your membership fee stays with the State Association. The State Associations have far more resources and power than the NRAA, but I think we have a lot more work to do to improve communications between The NRAA and State Associations and all the individual shooting members.

Cheers
Bob Pedersen

[bruce moulds]

bob,
hear hear to what you say.
you are doing an excellent job so far, and seem to be improving things no end.
thank you for disseminating the info.
i also agree that fclass is only part of a long range shooting movement, and all disciplines have to move forward together for mutual benefit.
this is one of the things we the safca have learned and learned well and accepting that has paid off in spades.
bruce moulds.

[RMc]

Bob PM sent

[M12LRPV]

Bob apart from leaving you in peace to get the job done... is there anything we can do to help?

[bobped]

Thanks very much for the replies and offers.

As I said before, I didn't say it all to have a moan.

However, I do believe that the NRAA could do much better in letting people know what it is doing, thinking about and deciding.

That's why I put the info up as I did. The NRAA often sends info to the State Associations, and they don't necessarily pass it on all the time. The NRAA doesn't communicate well all the time.

The NRAA has limitations on what it can do, because of the way it is structured. It has limited resources, and people either rightly or wrongly expect it to do lots of things. In some cases, if people want more, the NRAA will need better resources, or we need to change the structure of the National / State Relationships.

Whatever way I can get my message out about what is happening in my own bailiwick, I will try and do so. I believe in spreading the message about what we are doing, and in fostering understanding and co-operation. That way, people are usually happier and more satisfied.

Cheers
Bob

[ger]

[snip]
... In some cases, if people want more, the NRAA will need better resources, or we need to change the structure of the National / State Relationships.
[/snip]

Cheers
Bob

I know where Bob is coming from here, and as someone close to the NRAA I fully endorse his words.

To me the current structure is seriously flawed and a hinderence to ongoing progress. I have made such statements on this forum in the past.

The way it was put together ten or so years ago probably sounded like a good idea at the time, but I think it can be demonstrated that it doesn't quite fit anymore.

Geoff.