Will 'no neck turn' be competitive in FO???

[dee cee]

Guys and girls,

Having a custom rig made up in 6x47L but due to being relatively new to reloading have opted to have a no neck turn set up.

I understand that generally, no neck turn will not be as accurate or consistant as brass that is turned, but will I still be competitive?

Anyone else in FO competing well with a no neck turn set up?

I have read on other forums that some are having a fair bit of success without, but I was wondering what the 'real life' experiences are.

What sort of approximate MOA difference would one expect?

Thanks

dee cee

[AlanF]

Dee Cee,

My impression is that very few 6mm F-open chamberings in Australia have tight necks. Some don't believe in it, some think any gains are too marginal to worry about. I do it, mainly because the theory of consistent neck tension makes sense, and because many high achieving LR BR shooters do it. However its one of those things that the benefits are a matter of opinion - somewhat like barrel tuners and moly coating.

But to answer your main question, if you are uncompetitive, it won't be due to no-turn necks, because some of the most competitive 6mms around do not have turned necks.

Good luck with your project.

Alan

[dee cee]

That is very reassuring Alan, thanks. I won't be competitive for a while anyway while I learn the ropes, but at least it will be me and not the rifle.

Thanks mate

dee cee

[pjifl]

Usually a minimum neck chamber designed specifically for precision shooting, in conjunction with top quality brass, is sufficient to be competitive. Especially on days when conditions are up.

But do keep an eye on the quality of the brass when purchasing new batches of cases.

6BR cases are usually sufficiently accurate to not neck turn with a minimum chamber.

I have no experience of the 6x47 but suspect it may be similar.

Peter Smith.

[bully_eye]

An article from the 6mmBR website that might be of interest on this topic.


"Turning necks is widely, if not universally, done by short-range benchresters shooting 6 PPC and 22 PPC cartridges. On the other hand, many long-range shooters, using bigger cases with longer bullets, have had great success with sorted, but non-neck-turned Lapua brass. For example, Richard Schatz has set multiple world records, and won many major matches shooting his no-turn Dashers.

Turned necks still completely dominate the short-range benchrest game. But, do we have any hard evidence of how much of an advantage turned necks offer? And, is it fair to say that turning necks is less advantageous with longer, heavier bullets typically used for 600- and 1000-yard benchrest?

Lou Murdica is a very skilled benchrest shooter in California. This editor has personally seen Lou finish first in a short-range BR match competing against some of the best shooters on the West Coast. Lou does a lot of serious comparison testing of components, and he has access to an indoor tunnel. The tunnel allows Lou to eliminate (or at least minimize) wind effects when testing ammo. Over the past few months Lou has been testing turned vs. unturned necks, and he recently posted some interesting conclusions.



Lou writes: “I don’t want to say that what some people have done is wrong for them, but I have been testing for nine months, shooting three to four times a week. I have found that there IS a difference between turned brass and unturned brass. Turned brass has shot better every single time in my tests. However, I have also come to the conclusion that if you shoot with very, very light neck tension it is hard to tell the difference between turned brass or unturned brass. If you shoot with any neck tension, though, turning does make a difference and you can get flyers with unturned brass.

The benefits of neck-turning showed up more in the 22 calibers than the 6mm. Moreover, I shot thick necks in the 6mm better than the 22. I found that the 22 wanted more release that the 6mm. I could get the 6mm to shoot tight necks easier than the 22.

For what it’s worth, I think that everyone should at least clean up their brass with a turner. All these years people have tried to find short cuts in shooting benchrest and every time we always come back to the same steps and care in making brass as before. I think it’s a given that if you want to compete at the top you cannot take short cuts. You may get by once or twice, but in the long run it will hurt you.

Since 1991 when I was on the winning team at the 1st World Shoot in France, I started to experiment and shoot every weird thing I could find or build. I tried more crap, bought and built more guns and while doing this I tried to shoot every shoot I could across the country. I took Tony Boyer’s class three years back, and the first thing he told me was pick a couple of guns out of all of them and shoot 6 PPC and nothing else for the next couple years. He told me to spend my money on barrels for those guns. Well, I did as he suggested and boy, it made a difference in my shooting.

What I’m trying to say to all the guys that have been shooting benchrest for a while and are starting to travel to the bigger matches is, stick with proven goods that have dominated for years, like the 6 PPC, with turned necks. You can try the weird stuff in practice.”

Neck-Turning, Neck Tension, and Longer Bullets
–Does a Different Rule Apply?
Keep in mind that Lou is primarily talking about short-range PPC loads with short, flat-base bullets. Those who are shooting beyond 400 yards typically use longer boat-tail, high-BC bullets. These have a smaller, less pronounced pressure ring, a much longer bearing surface, and weigh two to three times as much as a 6mm PPC match bullet. The longer bullets are also propelled by slower powders, operating in a somewhat lower pressure range than is common for a competitive 6 PPC load. Notably, top 600-yard shooters like Terry Brady and Richard Schatz have found that these long bullets prefer relatively light neck tension, meaning the neck is sized to just .001-.002 under a loaded round.

This takes us back to one of Lou Murdica’s observations. Lou said: “I have also come to the conclusion that if you shoot with very, very light neck tension it is hard to tell the difference between turned brass or unturned brass.” Though Lou was mostly working with the lighter bullets, perhaps his observations explain why unturned brass has worked surprisingly well with the heavier bullets with long bearing surfaces. Since those long bullets typically work best with relatively light tension, maybe the benefits of turning necks are not so great, and that’s why someone like Richard Schatz can win with no-turn Dasher brass. Richard was the 2007 IBS 600-yard Shooter of the Year.

This is not to say that turned necks can’t benefit the 600-yard shooter. Murdica also shoots 600 yards, and he believes neck-turning helps long-range accuracy. Don Nielson absolutely dominated the NBRSA 600-yard Nationals using brass that was carefully neck-turned with his Pumpkin neck turning tool. Don strongly believes that his turned necks helped with accuracy and shot-to-shot consistency. So the jury is still out on the merits of neck-turning with longer bullets in bigger cases, but we applaud Lou Murdica for doing some serious research and putting in the “tunnel time” to confirm the benefits of turned necks for the short-range PPC shooters"

Just some food for thought,
Michael

[dee cee]

There's alot to take in from that post bully eye. I think I'll stick to the no neck turn for now and see how I go. I can always rechamber down the track, but I don't think I'll be able to outshoot the rifle with a no neck turn anyway.

Thanks for the posts

dee cee

[Chopper]

g,day ,my 6x47 has shot 100s with lapua brass not turned and it is very competitive ,so dont lose sleep over it, get into it .

[bully_eye]

Just posted for interests sake no more...not my views although my 6.5 has a very tight neck and I'm happy with the limited results to date but then I've never tried it with unturned necks. Definitely not worth loosing sleep about.

Michael

[dee cee]

Thanks guys, I'll sleep easy now....

Hey Chopper, what loads have you found worked in your 6x47L???

dee cee

[AlanF]

...my 6.5 has a very tight neck and I'm happy with the limited results to date but then I've never tried it with unturned necks...

Michael,

Dennis Shallis was all set to come to the Vic Queens but is now doubtful - any chance you might get down this way sometime? I have the NSW Queens marked on my calendar this year, so may see you there if not at Bendigo.

Alan

[bully_eye]

Doubt it Alan...I work in television outside broadcasting and we mostly televise sport which unfortunately mostly occurs on weekends...I struggle just to make it to the bare minimum club shoots at the moment let alone prize meetings. If my situation changes though I'll keep it in mind. in fact have just had a slow twist 6br barrel made up for shooting 68gr flat base bench rest bullets at 100 and 200 yd which I can do during the week here in Sydney such is my time limitation for long range shooting at the moment.

Michael

[AlanF]

Michael,

Sounds like a very interesting job. The good thing about target shooting is its something you can get serious about at any time of life, so when one day your work hours change, no doubt you'll be able to make up for lost time on the range.

In the meantime, until you can get to the range to lend a hand, Kelvin Bell and I will just have to soldier on flying the flag for the 6.5-284.

Alan

[pjifl]

Bully-eye wrote a lot of material - interesting stuff.

One comment he made -

>For what it’s worth, I think that everyone should
>at least clean up their brass with a turner.

Not a bad idea - and it will also provide you with some idea of just how consistent your brass is at the same time.

I was lucky to start off with a batch of excellent cases and never neck turned and shot possibles with unturned necks - a minimum dimension reamer. Later new brass was nowhere as good and the neck cleanup was a revelation.

As a matter of interest I also won many shoots while fireforming. The large number of cases needed for big shoots (unless you load every day which disturbs drinking time) puts F shooting in a somewhat different category from other precision shooting - and is another reason to search out good cases with minimum but standard necks rather than fully neck turn.

By the way - please keep us informed of the low twist 6BR. I have been thinking of doing something similar with a barrel intended for a 6PPC which has been collecting dust in my cupboard but then again I have so much on my plate.......

Anyone coming to Rockhampton (Easter) or Mackay (May Day Weekend)
from the deep south. I am busy trying to get things ready - not all that far off now.

Peter Smith.

[bully_eye]

Must stress that all that info in my first post was taken from 6mmbr.com and was written by people with much more experience and knowledge on this topic than me.
As for the slow twist 6mm...it's a 6mmBR Remington using Lapua brass trimmed 50 thou. Basically same length as a ppc but with a slightly bigger boiler room...shorter neck apparently suits flat based pills better. Didn't want all the bother of fire forming ppc brass. Rifle wont be legal for normal sort range bench rest but should still be fun doing some group shooting for a change and I think those 68gr Barts Ultras might just scare the 10 ring a bit at 300m as well.

Michael