1000 yard group sizes with 700p TWS in 7.62 (155gr Palma)

[joliver]

First of all,

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all!:-)

John from Perth back again - haven't been as regular on the forums as I would like to have been but hopefully will be a bit more regular now:-)

Okay - HERE is the 64 dollar question guys:-)

I'm shooting the same rig I've had for about 8 months now - a Remington 700p TWS rifle (with the HS Precision stock) in 7.62/308 at the local range. I'm shooting F Class Standard but...

THIS MEANS I can only shoot the Winchester 155gr Palma Match...

I believe that the 26" barrel on my 700p (1/12 twist) would probably do MUCH BETTER at the 1000 yard range with my Federal HPBT match grade 175 gr ammo - but I'm not allowed to use it...

My results at longer range (600 yards and above) have varied - we get fairly INSANE/strong winds at the army range where I shoot - and once you get out to 800 yards its NOT that unusual (if someone gets the windage wrong to start) with that first sighter ending up on the TARGET NEXT DOOR:-)

Okay - MY PROBLEM is this: EVERYONE is shooting their F Class 'RACE GUNS' - and as I said on the forum (few months back now) previously, I *don't* want to have to spend MEGABUCKS on a 30 inch barreled 'race gun' with fancy front rest with 10 adjustments and all sorts of other kit that turns the whole idea of marksmanship/shooting with a REAL/off the shelf tactical rifle into a bit of a joke (IMHO). I would like to be able to shoot competitively (IF that is actually possible?) with the rig I have...

I have the 700p set up with a Harris Bipod at the front which is what I shoot off - I use the sandbag (F Class leather job) that everyone uses for the back of the weapon (because even though I have a MONOPOD attached the rules are that I can't use it...

My scope is the Nightforce NFX 5.5-22x56mm with mildot reticle...

At the 1000 yard range SO FAR I have had groups around 20 inches at best (of 24 rounds) and its been as bad as 40 inches on some days (when the wind has been really bad).

BIG QUESTION: REALISTICALLY: How much further can I expect to push this rig in terms of ACCURACY (especially in the 600 to 1000 yard area) and would I be expecting TOO MUCH with the rig 'as is' to be getting 1MOA accuracy? (i.e. a 10 inch group at 1000 yards?)

ALL FEEDBACK WELCOME - I'm starting to go a bit nuts here - trying to work out why my performance is so bad and trying to work out how much of it is due to me being the ONLY GUY on the range shooting an off the shelf tactical rifle as opposed to a built from the ground up custom F Class rifle...

Thanks in advance,

John:-(

[Guest]

Hi John,
Firstly, the Winchester factory loads are NOT the ONLY ammunition you can use. You are allowed to reload and currently can use the 155gn by Sierra, Nosler and Dyer.
Good chance you would do much better with Handloads as you can then tune the ammunition to your rifle.
I am not familiar with " tactical " rifles but would suggest you look around
and see how many F Class shooters are using " tactical" rifles against those who are not. Horses for courses.
Have you chronographed the Winchester ammo? If not the I suggest you do first up as my guess is that in your 26" barrel ( and other factors considered ) it might be a little on the slow side. If you are shooting at Swanbourne which is at sea level, you would need at least 2920 ft/ sec mv to get to 1000yds and be stable.
1 moa is not good enough as this barely holds the 6 ring ( V bull ) Minimum capabilities of the rifle/ammo combination should be under 3/4 moa and even that gives you little wind error.
Tactical rifles are just that, designed for short range accuracy, and before anyone jumps me, I know that there are some tactical rifles which can perform ---doesn't mean they ALL do.
Harris bipod on a 308 for precision target work--Hmm. Again look around and see how many are using this set up.
What you have to remember is that the " RACE GUNS " you mention are purpose built target rifles and like I said --Horses for courses. I honestly think you are expecting too much from your rifle -as is.
Barry

[AlanF]

...I *don't* want to have to spend MEGABUCKS on a 30 inch barreled 'race gun' with fancy front rest with 10 adjustments and all sorts of other kit that turns the whole idea of marksmanship/shooting with a REAL/off the shelf tactical rifle into a bit of a joke (IMHO)...

John,

What this tells me is that F-Class is probably not your cup of tea. My impression of what most F-Class shooters are about is shooting at paper targets at rifle ranges with whatever equipment is allowed in their particular class, and that is as far as it goes. The use of a rifle which is configured to be used for tactical purposes is not encouraged, and with good reason in today's political environment. In the US there are tactical competitions, but none that I know of in Australia. If you want to use F-Class purely as a way of getting best performance out of you and your rifle, and are not too concerned about being competitive, then there should be no problem using any projectile and load, and shooting in F-Open class. Just make sure not to use the magazine, or any muzzle brake/flash eliminator attachments.

I might add that you do not need to spend megabucks to have a competitive F-Std rifle, much less in fact than your set-up would have cost. Why not have both, and swap the scope between them?

Alan

[joliver]

Many thanks for the advice/input guys - much appreciated...

I still feel like I haven't exhausted ALL possibilities in terms of the rig I've got - and it may even be worthwhile trying to shoot OPEN just to have more options in terms of ammo/reloading/different weights...

Most of the guys I've talked to in the US shooting a rig like mine have said that they do MUCH BETTER with the 168gr or 175gr pill - especially the 175gr Federal match grade HPBT...

As to ending up with TWO rigs - the 'tactical' (which I could always call the 'factory' rifle I suppose:-) and the F Class race gun that all the other F Class shooters seem to be using... Yes - it may well be that I end up having to do that too...

Re: Whether F Class is my cup of tea or not: I guess my problem here is that I don't really see ANYWHERE else I can actually be (?) Based on the fact that I want to shoot 7.62 and at the longer distances in particular (MOST interested in fine honing my skills at the 600 to 1000 yard ranges).

Some sort of service rifle competition I suppose but then again with MY eyes I *need* the scope:-)

John.

[AlanF]

John,

Have you considered Match Rifle? Not sure how much is done in WA, but it would allow you to use your .308 with any projectiles. If you are prepared to shoot only the ultra-long ranges (1000, 1100 and 1200 yds), then this could suit you.

Alan

[mike H]

Hello John,
I would look at your problem another way. Ignore what the F/open results are, assuming they are using faster, flatter shooting cartridges than you. Compare your scores/ results with the full-bore shooters. They should be similar to top end A- grader`s. If they are not, there are a few reasons why. Some could be, rifle not accurate enough, ammo not up to the job, shooter error`s. Are you loosing points because of wind only, or elevation also? I would try and test the rifle and ammo off a solid bench-rest, and if possible chronograph velocities at the same time. My own opinion is that you will need to spend some time reloading to improve your results. If you can`t get a tight group at 100 yards, with good velocity, you certainly won`t get 10" groups @ 1000 yards.
The 155 grain Sierra and Dyer projectiles in good rifles handle 1,000 yards easily.

Alan mentioned trying Match Rifle, it is really long range shooting, the first time your target comes up at 1200 yards with a red spotter in the centre, you are hooked. However to be competative you do need a rifle with a long barrel. Most are 32" or 34".
Well I hope you can get some better results with the current rifle. Remember you don`t shoot 1,000 yards every day, try and wear them down at the shorter ranges first.
Good luck,
Mike.

[joliver]

Hi again guys,

Have to admit it - this is the FIRST TIME I have heard of 'Match Rifle' - but it DOES sound *great* - I would *love* to try shooting at 1000 yards and FURTHER (rather than 1000 yards being the maximum) - but my immediate reaction is that there is probably nobody here in WA actually doing it...

IF it was available I would certainly be interested though...

Once again though, its a case of having to move up to some sort of race gun with ultra long barrel (?)

I'm wondering - with GOOD OPTICS (I do have the Nightforce NFX 5.5-22x56mm scope) and my existing rifle - and working on either the best factory 175gr (or heavier?) or on the best/most powerful 175gr reloads I can do myself - would I still be able to compete (i.e. be competitive) in 'Match Rifle'?

John.

[Guest]

Hi John,
Your bigest problem is the length of your barrel. Generally, 30" is absolute minimum for match rifle as with the heavier, longer projectiles, loads are maximum even in 30" and longer barrels. 26" is really stretching for 1000 yds and that distance is starters for Match rifle.
Personally I would advise don't go beyond F Class standard. Work up some good loads with 2206H ( start at 44 gns ) tune your rifle, and you may well be competitive to 1000yds.
Barry

[joliver]

Hi guys,

Many thanks for all advice/input...

Just a quick one to let you know that I'm starting to make some progress...

I think I will probably shoot two matches now - F Class Open (even if I do get trashed by the 6br nail drivers and other guns used in this class) because I can use the RIGHT ammo for my gun...

AND...

Field Class...

I went up to another club on the weekend and did my FIRST actual test of my rifle using the ammo it was made to shoot (the 168gr Federal Match HPBT and 175gr).

I was AMAZED: at 300yards I was immediately shooting a 10 round 1MOA group:-)

Unfortunately the range up there only goes to 600 yards but I'd say I already have my answer anyway - my weapon is MORE than capable of doing a 1MOA (10 inch) group at 1000 yards - but just as the rules of F Class Standard limit bullet weight to 155gr projectiles which are ideally suited to the 30 inch barrelled race guns that all of these guys are using it TOTALLY disadvantages me to the extent that my 1MOA rifle (especially at the 1000 yard mark) ends up being a 4MOA rifle - and I end up thinking that there is really something wrong with me/my gun...(which there obviously isn't:-))

I can't tell you guys how much BETTER I feel now I know the truth:-) Nothing wrong with the gun - I simply need to be in a match/discipline that doesn't disadvantage me completely before I start by not allowing me to use the ammo I *need* to use in my shorter barrel/gun to make up (to some extent at least) for the disadvantage I am at because I have the 26" 1 in 12 twist barrel that came with my Remington 700p...

DEFINITELY a (positive) learning experience:-)

I can't wait to get back to this other range on Saturday - the sooner I can shoot at the 600 yard range there the better - I am *confident* that with my 175gr Federal Match HPBT (Sierra Match King) bullets I will get a 6 inch group (10 rounds) or LESS even!:-)

John.

[Dave P]

Just a thought but if you don't want to spend a lot of money but still want to shoot F Standard then why not consider a switch barrel. Have a 30 inch MAB or Trueflite or Maddco etc set up for the Rem and just screww on the barrel thats needed for the day either the 1-12 or the Palma.
Much cheaper than buying another gun and not hard to arrange.

cheers
DaveP