Berger bullets optimal speed

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wsftr
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#16 Postby wsftr » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:28 am

Its an interesting point that best load...I prefer most consistent....looking at the results/data and interpreting is key...where the black magic/experience sits...if you chase smallest or fastest, be prepared to adjust daily....a legitimate approach but maybe not so much for F-class.

bruce moulds
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#17 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:28 am

unless you chase the smallest and are a master of the tuner.
to be such simply requires a LOT of shooting.
to benefit from this also requires being a master of the wind, which takes even more shooting.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#18 Postby Gyro » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:58 am

OK Bruce maybe u could break the secret squirrel code and tell us how a tuner works ? Or has Eric Cortina done that ?

bruce moulds
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#19 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:34 am

gyro,
i have elected to not go with a tuner because i am now too old to have the time to come to grips with such.
i believe the australian team understands them well but is keeping it secret so the americans cannot win.
in fact they seem to understand tuners so well that all other teams will waste their time turning up.
and their code is better than the enigma code used by the nazis during ww11.
it remains to be seen if they will release the key to the code after they win the next worlds.
not being up there what i would do is work up a load with low s.d and tight groups with the tuner in a known position.
then when conditions change, if things go off the boil i would turn the tuner till back in nirvana.
all these results would need to be recorded for reference, to fall back on later.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#20 Postby Gyro » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:42 am

https://benchrest.com/showthread.php?98 ... The-Tunnel

OR http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?486 ... orks/page2

Maybe the Americans know a bit about tuners too ?

One comment that made a LOT of sense to me ( due to my belief in using a non-adjustable fixed weight ) was where a writer states that the primary effect of the tuner is accomplished by just its added weight, with a secondary and lesser effect by moving the weight. I suspect that is the thinking of a few now ?
Last edited by Gyro on Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

bruce moulds
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#21 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:00 am

gyro, the gene beggs tuner has proven to be obsolete.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#22 Postby Gyro » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:01 pm

Says Gene Beggs in one of the above stories ......"For weeks, I have gone to the tunnel almost every day and practiced what I described in my post on how to use a tuner; it repeats every time. The adjustments are quick, and easy. At will, I can put the rifle completely out of tune and bring it right back using only the tuner.

In all of this, two schools of thought have emerged;

1. Those who feel that one should add large amounts of weight beyond the muzzle in order to move the parallel node all the way to or beyond the crown, thereby eliminating the need for adjustments, supposedly, 'stopping' the muzzle. Once set, they leave it alone. Those in this camp regard such a device as a dampener, not a tuner.

2. Those who regard tuners as just that, tuners; a device that enables the shooter to vary the vibration frequency of the barrel at will.


In answer to all of this, I say, "Method #1 is impractical because, even if it were true that there is a parallel node that is motionless and that by adding enough weight to the muzzle you can actually move it to the crown; can we afford that much of a weight penalty in a 10.5 lb., rifle?" And second, adding that much weight to the muzzle makes the rifle nose heavy and disturbs its balance. Third, I do not like the idea of anything protruding beyond the muzzle that interferes with the escape of high pressure gas at bullet exit.

The question is often asked, "How much weight does it take?" For method number one; a bunch, close to a pound in some cases. For method two; not much! I have not found the absolute minimum, but my three ounce tuner works perfectly on both LV and HV barrels" ....

Kianga1971
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:06 am

Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#23 Postby Kianga1971 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:04 pm

Man I don’t know about you all but I am learning a lot from this post.

Thanks to all.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#24 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:50 pm

but gene"s tuners have no rubber in them, making them from the age of steam.
and the tuners that go beyond the barrel muzzle have a self compensating effect,
as the fouling builds up in the tuner at the end of the muzzle, the slow addition of its weight compensates for both the day warming up and barrel fouling.
should there be a cold snap, you just scrape a bit out.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#25 Postby Gyro » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:41 am

Jokes aside Bruce people get ‘stuck’ because they believe theory “x” which then shapes their thinking for further work i.e. the 11 deg crown, that rubber is good in a tuner, and brass, that a gun should balance just forward of the receiver ………

That really can be limiting. My current F Open gun has a bloody big heavy knob ( with no rubber or brass ) ahead of the muzzle and it works fine. So far !

bruce moulds
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Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#26 Postby bruce moulds » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:24 am

where the americans are ahead of us with tuners, is in selectively changing the point of impact with eccentric adjustable muzzle weights.
this would appear to have biggest benefit in getting poi to the centre of the scope's adjustment range.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

johnk
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Location: Brisbane

Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#27 Postby johnk » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:58 am

bruce moulds wrote:where the americans are ahead of us with tuners, is in selectively changing the point of impact with eccentric adjustable muzzle weights.

If only they could prove their theories in open competition. :lol:

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#28 Postby bruce moulds » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:23 am

john,
they might yet, it just depends on whether we are up the creek without a paddle and have also burned our boat.
without fully coming to grips with their eccentric muzzle weights, i see more benefit in benchrest disciplines for this technology.
point blank, 600 yd, and 1000 yd disciplines do not require the extreme scope adjustments we do in aust fcless.
intl fclass possibly more so, as it is only from 800 to 1000.
guys are paying big money for superior optics, and then not using them optically centered.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#29 Postby pjifl » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:04 pm

I think that eccentric muzzle weights may be a useful but extremely complex tool to modify barrel vibrations. At one time I experimented with this concept on a 22 rimfire just for fun. But that was an attempt to induce different muzzle vibrations which it did but I went back to a heavy parallel barrel with no attachments.

But as a means of moving the scope field of view it seems to me quite laughable and smacks of simply more advertising hype. It joins the advertising hype accepted by short range shooters that if you pay more money on promised magic optics you will see bullet holes at 1000y in any atmospheric miragey conditions.

Well thought out adjustable scope mounts are available to match the elevation range of a Riflescope to user requirements. In any case, the best riflescopes using ED glass in the objective do give an exceptionally wide range of field with top resolution. Certainly way better than what is usually available on a long distance rifle range in daylight. Even in a short scope. You need to shoot early morning like 3 AM when there is a temperature inversion to even approach theoretically perfect optical performance. Shooters who shoot on non marked targets are more susceptible to these - well they are almost scams.

I wonder how many will insist on an indexed barrel PLUS a magic offset muzzle weight ?? If it costs more then it has to be better ??????
Add in an elastomer made of unobtanium to damp the increased barrel vibrations at great cost as well. Gotta win somehow !!!!

Sorry for the cynicism

Peter Smith.

John T
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:42 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Berger bullets optimal speed

#30 Postby John T » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:24 pm

Hello Peter.

Loved your reference to "unobtanium".

Have done some web plodding into HIDAMETS but have yet to identify even one that is commercially available. Despite all the papers on vibration damping and the numerous alloys that will/could do a good/great job. does anyone actually make them?

Regards,
John T.


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