Safety: Retiring from the mound

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PeteFox
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Location: Tas.

Safety: Retiring from the mound

#1 Postby PeteFox » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:56 pm

RULE: 2.1.5 Retiring From the Mound
(a) Before retiring from the mound each competitor must go through the
unloading motions with the muzzle pointing towards the target and
then remove the bolt from the rifle.
(b) As the competitor retires from the mound he shall present the breech
of the rifle to the scorer and check scorer where applicable so that he or they can verify that the chamber of the rifle is empty by visible inspection using any appropriate method. The onus is upon the shooter to enable this to be carried out.

One thing that really annoys me is having someone insist on looking up the breech of my rifle after finishing a shoot, I’ve normally got an armful of stuff which makes it difficult to do. Or it means an extra trip back to get gear holding up another shooter waiting to get setup.
I like to use a chamber flag, but some scorers don’t like it and insist on looking up the barrel. I can’t find anything in the rules either against chamber flags or enforcing looking up the barrel. Is this a throwback or are chamber flags an “appropriate method” with other clubs?
Pete

ihmsakiwi
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:53 pm

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#2 Postby ihmsakiwi » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:03 pm

Our local club does both. Visual inspection after shooting and must have chamber flag in the action whilst carrying rifle to & from the mound.

PeteFox
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Location: Tas.

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#3 Postby PeteFox » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:10 pm

ihmsakiwi wrote:Our local club does both. .


Seems to me to be a waste of time and effort.
Is anyone seriously suggesting that it is possible to have a round in the chamber at the same time as a chamber flag?
If the answer is NO, then what is the point?

Malcolm Hill
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:40 pm
Location: Mid North S.A.

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#4 Postby Malcolm Hill » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:37 pm

Pete. Update just being circulated by NRAA concerning this . Keep your eye out for member update number 49. Regards Malcolm.

bruce moulds
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Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#5 Postby bruce moulds » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:53 pm

god only knows how much money ssaa made selling chamber flags when they introduced them.
this could be a way for nraa to start financing itself .
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
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scott/r
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Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:22 pm
Location: far north brisbane

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#6 Postby scott/r » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:27 pm

Malcolm Hill wrote:Pete. Update just being circulated by NRAA concerning this . Keep your eye out for member update number 49. Regards Malcolm.


Member Update 49 is on the NRAA Website now and one of the updates are chamber flags starting from 1st January 2020.
Scott.

Peter Hulett
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:44 pm
Location: Geelong, Victoria

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#7 Postby Peter Hulett » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:14 pm

PeteFox wrote:
ihmsakiwi wrote:Our local club does both. .


Seems to me to be a waste of time and effort.
Is anyone seriously suggesting that it is possible to have a round in the chamber at the same time as a chamber flag?
If the answer is NO, then what is the point?

Yes I am suggesting that it is possible to have a round in the chamber at the same time as a chamber flag. I have seen it. It all depends on the length of the flag and the length of the action and the type of rifle. From a safety point of view the best method we have is a look down the chamber when a shooter leaves the mound regardless of how inconvenient a shooter may find it. As we increase the number of disciplines that our SSRs include we increase the number of types of rifles that are used on our ranges and to make the RO's job easier a breech flag is an easy visual check that the rifle is safe and the bolt is out when rifles are being carted around.
In terms of cost, i have no experience of what SSAA did but I had 100 flags made and printed with our Club logo for less than $US50 a few years back.
Peter

sungazer
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:58 pm

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#8 Postby sungazer » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:33 pm

The use of chamber flags should make removing the bolt un necessary. To remove the bolt in some gun even just a 303 you have to remove the sights first. This is getting a bit onourus. Certainly the SSAA ranges Chamber flags are allowed. Think all the guns the bolts cannot be removed. pump, lever, ect some of the bull pup designs.

to make more restrictions even in the name of Safety is not needed or good for the sport if real Safety is not being improved upon. Hunter class?

Peter Hulett
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:44 pm
Location: Geelong, Victoria

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#9 Postby Peter Hulett » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:41 pm

sungazer wrote:The use of chamber flags should make removing the bolt un necessary. To remove the bolt in some gun even just a 303 you have to remove the sights first. This is getting a bit onourus. Certainly the SSAA ranges Chamber flags are allowed. Think all the guns the bolts cannot be removed. pump, lever, ect some of the bull pup designs.

to make more restrictions even in the name of Safety is not needed or good for the sport if real Safety is not being improved upon. Hunter class?


This discussion was anticipated and expected. That is why the rule change will go through the States and Territories before adoption. Now is your chance to lobby your State Association.
Peter

PeteFox
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Location: Tas.

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#10 Postby PeteFox » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:15 am

Peter Hulett wrote:Yes I am suggesting that it is possible to have a round in the chamber at the same time as a chamber flag. I have seen it. It all depends on the length of the flag and the length of the action and the type of rifle. From a safety point of view the best method we have is a look down the chamber when a shooter leaves the mound regardless of how inconvenient a shooter may find it.
Peter


Peter
This is not possible, the two things cannot be in the CHAMBER at the same time. If there is a round in the chamber, the chamber is full. Period. Flag won’t go!
You are talking about a chamber flag with too short a tail or not fitted properly. It would fall out. A chamber flag should extend into the rifling. With a chamber flag that is suitable for the task, where is the problem?
The NRAA is pretty good at making rules designed around a measurement it should be pretty simple to set a standard for a flag.
To be clear, I am not advocating leaving bolts in rifles, just having a chamber flag as a substitute for looking through the chamber.

I am curious to know how anyone can be sure that a cleared rifle hasn’t had a round re-inserted in it once a shooter has left the mound. A chamber flag stops that.

Pete

Barry Davies
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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#11 Postby Barry Davies » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:41 am

Bolt out is the safest way and fixes that problem. It's a bit like that stupid rule about no rifles on the mound while someone is forward, yet it's ok to sit one on the ground behind and point it in any direction -not much thought went into that one.
Barry

DannyS
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Location: Hamilton
Contact:

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#12 Postby DannyS » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:23 am

Is it really so hard to present your rifle to the scorer so that they can check the action is clear? Maybe just change the way you do things to facilitate this rather than change the system.

sungazer
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:58 pm

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#13 Postby sungazer » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:53 am

Or if you want to be seen doing the right thing rather than improving safety just go with the chamber flag.

The SSAA last year had 190,000 members this year it is close to 200,000. They do not require the removal of bolts as they know there are many, many guns that this is not possible. They rely solely on chamber flags.

The NRAA have recognized its declining membership and just accepted and published rules for a hunter class. A great move to be more inclusive and gives a clear indication to clubs that rifles other than single shot target rifles can be used. Now a rule that will effectively restrict the type of rifle that can be used. With more and more rifles designs that make removal of the bolt either a full dismantle or a 10 min field strip. This applies to even some current target rifle designs such as some tube guns.

Why is it that the NRAA that has RO that have been selected from their club as suitable people then are trained and tested. To become a RO wants to remove the discretion of the Safety method to be used? The NRAA members are already recognized as having a higher degree of safety used on thier ranges, hence the reduced danger zones accepted by the Police .

Tim L
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
Location: Townsville

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#14 Postby Tim L » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:36 am

PeteFox wrote:
Peter Hulett wrote:Yes I am suggesting that it is possible to have a round in the chamber at the same time as a chamber flag. I have seen it. It all depends on the length of the flag and the length of the action and the type of rifle. From a safety point of view the best method we have is a look down the chamber when a shooter leaves the mound regardless of how inconvenient a shooter may find it.
Peter


Peter
This is not possible, the two things cannot be in the CHAMBER at the same time. If there is a round in the chamber, the chamber is full. Period. Flag won’t go!
You are talking about a chamber flag with too short a tail or not fitted properly. It would fall out. A chamber flag should extend into the rifling. With a chamber flag that is suitable for the task, where is the problem?
The NRAA is pretty good at making rules designed around a measurement it should be pretty simple to set a standard for a flag.
To be clear, I am not advocating leaving bolts in rifles, just having a chamber flag as a substitute for looking through the chamber.

I am curious to know how anyone can be sure that a cleared rifle hasn’t had a round re-inserted in it once a shooter has left the mound. A chamber flag stops that.

Pete

So, in your first paragraph you say it's not possible, then in the second give 2 scenarios where it is !
As for pushing the flag stem into the rifling, I appreciate the desire for that but have first hand experience of finding small yellow shavings coming out with the first patch when cleaning.
The only explanation I have for that is the rifling shaves the stem of the breach flag when inserting it. I don't find that particularly desirable.
I learned to shoot in the cadets in the 80s, spent 23 years in green with over 15 as a small arms instructor. I can say with a level of certainty that checking for clear ALWAYS includes checking the breach on every weapon system I've been involved with (bar precharged anti tank weapons)
You are correct when you say a round can be reinserted after being checked and I agree a chamber flag would be a good ADDITION to a breach check, but never a replacement.
Any range that accepts the presence of a breach flag as initial confirmation of clear is doing a disevice to it's members and the shooting community at large.

lonerider43
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:55 pm

Re: Safety: Retiring from the mound

#15 Postby lonerider43 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:41 pm

if you can get the bolt in on the mound,you can get the bloody thing back out.
no matter how much fiddling it is.
Australian's Against "Gun-A-Phobia"


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