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223 or 308 and rifle advice (New to f-class)
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GarthFader



Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: 223 or 308 and rifle advice (New to f-class) Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Advance warning, this is a post from a absolute novice, so forgive me if the questions seem ridiculous to all the seasoned veterans here.

I'm looking at joining one of the local Melbourne clubs and getting into F-class shooting. I used to hunt when I was younger, but even then I had limited knowledge (by little I mean none), of ballistics and firearm calibres. Now i'm trying to bring my knowledge up to speed so I can make an informed decision when I purchase my f-standard rifle.

What i'm wanting to know is the relevant pros and cons of the .223 and .308 calibres when shooting at the various distances of f-class. I'm sure it's not a simple case of bigger is better.

Also, is it possible to shoot competitively (assuming i'm a decent shot), using an out-of-the-box rifle, optics and factory rounds?

I've been looking at rifles for sale and found a few options, mostly Rem700's like these two;

http://thegunsmiths.com.au/guns-shop/remington700milspec5r223new-p-3414.html
http://thegunsmiths.com.au/guns-shop/remington700varmintsf-p-1958.html

But i'm not sure of the traits that make a good target rifle. I'd be happy to spend a couple of grand to get started, but obviously i'd like to keep the initial cost down as much as possible.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Cheers.
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Quinny



Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 308 would be my pick. The 223 is a good round, however, when it gets windy, it will be very difficult to stay on target at long range, though it is a little cheaper to shoot. The 308 will be better for the longer ranges, plus the NRA branch shops sell the Winchester 155gn Palma match ammo - very cheap and very good if you plan on using factory rounds.

As for what makes a good target rifle - different people prefer different things, however pretty much any "varmint" style rifle (i.e. long, heavy barrel) will get you started. The Remingtons that you listed would be ok, also look at Savage (the mod 12 VLP is a great unit).

Savage make a series of target rifles from the factory, but they are around $2000 and pretty hard to get hold of.

Don't forget to include a good scope into the budget.
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GarthFader



Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Quinny!

I think setting myself up for the least complex way of shooting is ideal, I don't have the space or time just yet to start developing my own loads, so the factory match rounds sound like a good option. I'm surprised the branch store wouldn't also sell a match round for the 223 though, it seems a little odd.

I'm looking into scopes at the moment, any advice on what to look for?
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Quinny



Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't skimp on the optics. Get something with at least 50MOA of elevation adjustment, and around 32x magnification. 1/8th MOA click adjustments is a good thing, and also a "fine crosshair" reticle rather than a mildot or "ranging" type reticle.

On the top of the list would have to be the Nightforce BR 8-32x56, also the Sightron 8-32x is good as well - around $1500 and $1200 respectively.

Look at some of the shops in the US for scopes, as you can often pick up some good deals. I got a Sightron 36x target scope for around $500 less than Aus retail price. Also keep an eye on Usedguns or forums like this one for secondhand scopes at good prices.
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GarthFader



Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it worth having a variable magnification, or should I opt for a fixed? I don't imagine i'll be shooting 600+ for a while, but eventually i'd love to have a crack at the longer distances. OR does the magnification have benefits even at shorter ranges?
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Seddo



Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 407
Location: Latrobe Valley

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran some numbers through the ballistics calculator on the hornady website and came up with this comparison between the 80gr amax and 155gr amax with 10mph wind and 3000fps.

Ballistics Results - 223
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
0 3000 1599 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2791 1383 0 0 0 0.7 0.7 0.2
200 2591 1193 -3 1.4 0.4 2.7 1.3 0.4
300 2401 1024 -11.2 3.6 1 6.3 2 0.6
400 2218 874 -25.4 6.1 1.8 11.6 2.8 0.8
500 2043 741 -46.7 8.9 2.6 18.8 3.6 1
600 1876 625 -76.4 12.1 3.5 28.2 4.5 1.3
700 1719 525 -115.9 15.8 4.6 40 5.5 1.6
800 1573 439 -167.3 20 5.8 54.5 6.5 1.9
900 1438 367 -232.7 24.7 7.2 72 7.6 2.2
1000 1317 308 -315 30.1 8.7 92.8 8.9 2.6

Ballistics Results - 308
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
0 3000 3097 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2782 2664 0 0 0 0.7 0.7 0.2
200 2575 2283 -3 1.4 0.4 2.8 1.4 0.4
300 2377 1945 -11.3 3.6 1 6.6 2.1 0.6
400 2188 1648 -25.7 6.1 1.8 12.1 2.9 0.8
500 2008 1387 -47.4 9 2.6 19.7 3.8 1.1
600 1836 1161 -77.8 12.4 3.6 29.6 4.7 1.4
700 1676 966 -118.5 16.2 4.7 42.1 5.7 1.7
800 1527 802 -171.6 20.5 6 57.6 6.9 2
900 1391 666 -239.6 25.4 7.4 76.2 8.1 2.4
1000 1272 557 -325.7 31.1 9 98.3 9.4 2.7
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Seddo

Moe City Rifle Club
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Bindi2



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

308. Omark is a cheap rifle for F/class. Good scope and you are good to go to 1km or 1.2k if your range goes that far.
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Seddo



Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 407
Location: Latrobe Valley

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Bindi2, you cant beat an omark for bang for your buck. if you dont reload you can buy NRAA ammo from your club. You also have the option to try peep sights as they can be bolted to the rifle.
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Seddo

Moe City Rifle Club
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GarthFader



Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen many Omarks in .308 on the used gun sites, and the ones I have seem appear to be in ordinary condition, albeit very cheap ($400-500). Am I looking in the wrong place?

There haven't been too many on the selling forum here either.
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aaronraad



Joined: 08 Aug 2012
Posts: 298
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll go far with a used Omark in 308W. Just get it looked over by a gunsmith and you can lash out to have it rechambered to suit the factory Palma (Sierra or Dyer) 308W ammunition and recrowned, if need be.

If you ask around at the local fullbore range, or keep an eye out on the used firearms sites, you will find the odd Omark/Sportco/M-44 for sale. I've seen a few already set-up for F-Class that have been sold as the owner upgrades their gear. Single-shot Mausers, Sako's, Dales, Angel/Nielsons, Musgraves ect in safe working order are also suitable and sometimes just as affordable. Adjustable trigger is good also to make the most of F-Class.

A fixed scope is a good place to start, with a set of 15 to 20 MOA riser mounts/rings. Just make sure it has Parallax and enough MOA adjustment. I'm using an old steel Weaver T-10 on the Omark, but that is what I had spare at the time. I'd look for something about the x24 magnification. 40mm objective is okay with a 1" tube, but bigger is better and so are the dollars. You can learn to adjust your focus to get around mirage issues as you go. If you wear glasses get some more advice about shooting with a scope or peep sights.

Spend the rest of your money finding a comfortable repeatable postion on the mound, i.e. shooting mat, front rest/bipod, rear rest, stock configuration and sight bubble (spirit level). Make sure your scope's elevation turrent tracks vertical, even if it doesn't look square to horizontal and the plumb line. Make the alignment adjustment in the scope rings if need be and use your sight bubble to maintain the same set-up and hold week-to-week, shot-to-shot.

You'll need a notebook and pen. Your club members will help you with what details your need to start recording. They will also appreciate if you bring a pair of binos or spotting scope for scoring.

You'll be glad to know that having fun won't cost any extra.
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Be careful what you aim for, you might hit it! Antipodean Industrial - Home of the G7L projectiles
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GarthFader



Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Aaron,

I'm actually quite surprised at how affordable it can be to get set up for this class of shooting, obviously the ongoing costs will add up (ammo, comp fees, club membership etc), but it's looking to be a lot cheaper than my current hobby of downhill MTB... And a damn sight safer!

I'm hoping to get out to the Werribee range this weekend to meet some of the members and ask a few questions, hopefully they don't find it to frustrating dealing with newcomers.

Cheers.
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GarthFader



Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another couple of questions...

Are there any major faux pas when it comes to building or buying a rifle for F-Standard? I've picked up on a fair amount of negativity towards the tactical looking rifles, like the ones with the XLR stocks... Is there a reason for this? I'm not interested in these rifles, but i'm curious as to why people have a set against them.

Also, with regard to an Omark... What makes them a good choice? It looks like people often replace the barrel and stock and are left just with the Omark action. Is it still an Omark in this case? And is it the action of the Omark that makes them a good choice?
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Quick



Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 683
Location: Yanchep, Western Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People don't like the look of them. That's the problem. They however are an easy way into the sport. I started with a tactical style 308 Remington rifle. Has shot many a decent score but never a 60. A few 59 with mainly 56-58 when I do my part. A 60 is possible though when you drive the rifle correctly with regards to recoil management and muscle control.

I have swapped to FO and shoot a rifle like many. However I still like to shoot my 308 tactical rig as you really have to concentrate when shooting it and I think it makes one a better shooter. It's more like TR when it comes the body control required as the smallest movement or misalignment can throw your shot off.
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Shaun aka 'Quick'
Yanchep, Western Australia

308 Win F/TR
6x47 Lapua F-Open Shooter.
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Seddo



Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 407
Location: Latrobe Valley

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can pick up an old omark for $100-200 and re-barrel it or buy one and give it a clean up.

there are some here:

http://www.vra.asn.au/shop/Rifles.shtml
http://www.riflesa.asn.au/price_lists/guns_used.htm (action for 150-250)
http://www.usedguns.com.au/Guns/target_and_tactical
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Seddo

Moe City Rifle Club
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Tman



Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

308 is probably the better deal especially for distance. I have been a TR shooter for some 35 years, and about 3 years ago I went across to FClass, due to eyesight issues, having an Omark that I purchased in 1978, with a Maddco barrel, the only real work being to purchase a scope, a bipod, a rear bag and the top rail for the scope mount. I had the rail mounted, bought a NF BR 8-32x56 scope and have gone from there. This was a inexpensive introduction to FClass and this rifle action has exceeded any expectations that I initially had. More recently I have been shooting both TR and FClass for Team Grades, as our no. 2 TR team has been short on shooters, the eyesight issue to be investigated further, whilst at the same time shooting FClass. I have just got a Barnard action for FClass and am I going to convert my Omark back to TR. I had started reloading for FClass for the Omark but there were some issues with that, and given that I was travelling to a lot of prize meetings, factory ammunition was the safer option.
Go the Omark if you can get one, shoot factory loads to start with, and then try reloading to find an accurate consistent load, and do not stint on the optics. You can progress from there in the future, with other actions etc. You will learn a great deal, but most of all enjoy yourself
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